Lets discuss properties of tires since everyone keeps asking "which tires".
 

I think it would be good to have some discussion on construction of tires and how it affects their ride and durability.

Ok first off a question. Is TPI always an indicator of comfort/durability? I was always told higher TPI is more comfy but less durable and lower TPI will be more durable but less comfy. In my experience thats true but it could possibly be just the individual tires I've used in my limited experience.

I posted this in another thread, but it's super helpful: The Schwalbe website has all sorts of tire tech info on it: Tire Construction | Schwalbe North America

Main tire factors:
1) Rolling resistance
2) Traction
3) Suppleness/flexibility
4) Flat protection
Other stuff-- Weight, mounting difficulty


A given tire can be good or bad in all of these categories. Generally, better flat protection comes at the price of weight & flexibility.

TPI isn't really a good indicator of anything because of the variance between different brands. Within a brand, higher TPI usually indicates a more supple tire. For example, a Michelin Pro 4 SC is 110 TPI (the SC Comp is 150 TPI), and Continetal GP 4000sII is 330 TPI. Most people would consider these tires roughly equivalent. A Gatorskin tire is 180 TPI (really 3x60 TPI), but clearly not in the same performance category as a Pro 4SC.

Edit: For clarity, see comment below.

Gators I believe are 3 layers of 60 aren't they? Because they ride like 60 tpi tires.

Yes I check it. GP4000's also are 3 layers of 110 tpi.

Ah, that explains some of it then. I pulled the GP4000sII numbers off of bikestiredirects page. They just list 330 TPI, but it would make sense if it was 3x110.

Some places list it as 3/330tpi. Some places even have gator foldings just listed at 60tpi.

I have a pair of Schwalbe Marathon Plus that are slow, noisy, harsh, and murderous to install. And that's their good qualities....

....however, these things are indestructable. I've pulled bits of wire and glass out of them that would have destroyed other tires.

It just depends what you need them to do. If I go cross country or on an unsupported century, they are the tires I would use.

High TPI will make a tire more supple. But generally, when makers are doing that, they are also trying to make them lightweight. So as a result, high TPI tires are often less puncture resistant. Also, higher TPI tires can generally be run at higher pressures than lower thread count tires with same ride comfort, allowing lower rolling resistance. I was not aware that some were using 3 layers of 110 or 60 TPI material and calling it 330 or 180. If the tire is made out of 110 TPI material, it doesn't matter how many layers you use, it is going to ride like a 110 TPI tire. Using more layers might make it less prone to flats, but it will also increase the rotating weight.

What I like in a tire is suppleness and grip. Flat protection is secondary. Durability is tertiary. The difference between ordinary and very good tires isn't a lot of money. The difference between very good and great riding tires, is considerably more money. But you'll never get the best out of any tire if you don't correctly inflate them. And especially, don't over-inflate them.

Letsnot.

I just bought new tires (today) and completely forgot about these :mad:

If you want to talk about tires you really need to talk about chemistry.

Tires are the products of chemistry more than anything else. Then construction.

I really wish the Pro 4 SC tires had worked out for me cause they were awesome when I was actually on the road using them instead of sitting on the side of the road changing a flat.

So talk to us about chemistry.

I don't know a whole lot (not a chemist nor do I play one on TV) and some of what I do know is proprietary and it wasn't really my point anyway. I was just trying to point out that focussing on TPI isn't going to be terribly revealing.

So, end thread?

Well chemicals deal with molecules and atoms, and food is made of molecules and atoms, so is it time to talk about dinner? I am a "chemist" in the kitchen, sometimes my gf doesnt like my creations..

That seems to be up to you, non?

Well, I do have a degree in chemistry. But that isn't giving me a clue as to where one would start a discussion on the practical merits of rubber compounds in tires.

Wait, I read somewhere that vulcanizing takes the Elvis out of bicycle tires. So there's that.

:roflmao2: So tires score low on the E-Meter!

Ok, then maybe we can get somewhere on the chemistry side.

From my time with Continental I got a good dose of what goes into compounding. One of the things that seemed to be driving them (during the introduction of Black Chili) was the size of the molecules that comprised Black Chili and how they were much smaller than Silica based compounds used previously.

Once bonded to the casing it meant that the limiting factor to deflection wasn't the tread compound but the casing (and the compounds there). As I understood it, it meant that during deflection less energy was lost because the smaller molecules allowed the material to move more freely giving better adhesion and lower rolling resistance.

Thoughts?

I think it sounds good as a concept. But I couldn't say whether it actually effects performance. It could be that the size of the silica moles are small enough that this would be irrelevant or that there is also a significant difference in strength or flexibility between the intermolecular bonds of the two compounds.

And since continental triple wrapped the casing on every black chili tire I have ridden, I have no apples to apples hands on comparison between the two either.

Black Chili can't be bonded to the same chemicals used in the tires using silica. The compounds that make coloured tread work fine with the silica compounds but are incompatible with the black chili compounds. That's why all the black chili tires are only black.

I do know that dual compound tires are a tally hard to make because the compound flex at different rates during deflection and this leads to a breaking of the bonds between the two compounds at a molecular level. This was an issue with the first Vittoria dual compound tires where the grippy strips on the side would separate from the harder compound used for the center do the tread.

I speak from personal experience here as this problem put me into a guard rail at the end of a crit.

So, given this information I would assume that what Continental is claiming seems at least within the realm of possibility.

The problem with coloured tires still happens. I've seen the separation happen on multiple brand of tires on club members bikes. I believe it is more pronounced at our club due to the amount of cornering done while training on our track.

We seem to have had a mis-communication. I see my phone added some auto-corrects to my last post, although at least it stayed with chemistry in changing molecules to moles.

Anyway, I wasn't talking about dual compound tires but just silica vs. black chili on different tires. As I am a mere consumer, I have to choose among what is available as a combination of rubber compound and thickenss, casing, breaker and size/shape and then inflate it to an appropriate psi. I can't order up a "double wrap casing, black chili, 207 gram, 24mm, etc, etc" and then compare it to the same tire in silica or 23mm. So I may believe or suspect a certain rubber is doing what is claimed, it may be the extra grip is because what is sold as a 23mm is really a 24mm and I am comparing to a different tire where 23mm really is 23mm.

^^^i was talking about deflection and possibly other tire properties actually be affected by compounds at a molecular level. If it can happen in one instance it is possible that it can happen in another. Hence the possible validity to the claims regarding Black Chili made by Conti.

You know, for kids.