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Is SRAM in decline?

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Is SRAM in decline?

Old 06-26-14, 12:02 AM
  #51  
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SRAM is not in decline. Not even close.

Shimano has been able to creep back on the OEM side to where they really were before.

FWIW - OEM sales really isn't indicative of anything other than pricing and availability.

Now...some things most consumers aren't aware of:
1. Shimano has had little to no real "boots on the ground" support in the US for a long time. Poor representation, little to no race support at all, etc. \
2. Shimano lost a lot of market share in the US to SRAM when SRAM got serious about road
3. Shimano has reversed a lot of what happened and many of us predicted they would.
4. Shimano has now entered into agreements with USA Cycling to provide neutral support at most if not all US National Championship races.
5. Shimano Neutral support.....I'm not going to say that I have seen it, but I have been told first hand by a lot of racers that they have flat out refused to help riders who were racing with SRAM components. I can confirm that the vast majority of them have been "less helpful" than what we have grown accustomed to with the SRAM Neutral support.
6. Both SRAM and Shimano are in the process of massively changing the availability of component distribution channels in the US. Shimano has essentially gone direct/QBP. SRAM is moving some of their products along that path - like Quarq. Both have made concerted efforts to protect pricing. They both have their eyes set on price erosion.
7. SRAM Electronic - gotta be honest I don't know what all has hit the presses, but we've been seeing the factory guys that have been testing it - riding it - for quite a while now. It seems fairly refined and should be out fairly soon.

IMHO........<--- people still understand what that means right? Shimano pooped the bed with 7900 generation. The 9000 generation is a bit of redemption. The last generation Ultegra and DA kind of suck - going off of the issues I see when doing neutral support at races. SRAM pricing and availability are near impossible to make even considering Shimano aftermarket a tough proposition to justify. Di2...people love it...until they hate it. I think it's fine, but there are still issues. Broken Battery mounts, cut wires, etc.

SRAM isn't on decline. In fact expect to see more product and....most likely higher prices. Yay..
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Old 06-26-14, 11:01 AM
  #52  
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In regards to the original topic: No. I'm willing to bet, however, that the shop you refer to is probably a really big Trek dealer. I work at a shop where we sell road bikes from Trek, Cannondale, BMC, Colnago and even a little bit of Salsa/Surly. Trek is more of a Shimano brand overall. Cannondale is almost 50/50, but clearly favors their relationship with SRAM. BMC is definitely more Shimano and Colnago sees Shimano/Campy. It varies from manufacturer to manufacturer.

But that's just on the OEM side. As Psimet menitoned, Shimano went direct only and it has had lots of pretty negative consequences for our shop. It went from being able to tell a customer, "Oh yeah, distributor x has it in warehouse x, should be here in 2 or 3 days," to telling them, "Well, we'll order it from Shimano, and it may be a week or more. We might have to call and check..." And they've done other things to make it generally hell to deal with them as an independent dealer. We may see that have a bigger impact in the near future.

I think they all have their pluses and minuses. If it wasn't so damn expensive, I'd have Campy on everything. I had a bike with Shimano 105 5700. I did not like it, but it was so good, it wasn't worth the effort to replace it. I like SRAM, and will most likely build either a CX or a commuter bike with CX1. Honestly, people need to stop swearing allegiance to objects and just enjoy them for what they are.
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Old 06-26-14, 11:09 AM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by WalksOn2Wheels View Post
I'm willing to bet, however, that the shop you refer to is probably a really big Trek dealer.
Actually, no. Specialized, Giant and Pinarello.
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Old 06-26-14, 12:17 PM
  #54  
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I see zero sales figures in this thread.
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Old 06-26-14, 12:34 PM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by roadandmountain View Post
I see zero sales figures in this thread.
The 41 survives on anecdotes. If only objective observations were posted here, there would be only 5 threads a month.
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Old 06-26-14, 12:59 PM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post


IMHO........<--- people still understand what that means right? Shimano pooped the bed with 7900 generation. The 9000 generation is a bit of redemption. The last generation Ultegra and DA kind of suck - going off of the issues I see when doing neutral support at races....

Big +1 to that. I stuck with 7700 for years because 7800 and 7900 were uninteresting. I think that stagnation allowed SRAM to grab a big piece of the market share.
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Old 06-26-14, 01:07 PM
  #57  
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No....SRAM is solid. I use Campy.....but I like SRAM and have some older Dura Ace that is nice.
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Old 06-26-14, 01:56 PM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by Jiggle View Post
Big +1 to that. I stuck with 7700 for years because 7800 and 7900 were uninteresting. I think that stagnation allowed SRAM to grab a big piece of the market share.
I'll add I think 6700 and 5700 were solid improvements over their predecessors, though. Those upgrades happened after SRAM grabbed a good bit of the market, too.

And if Shimano is back to "where they really were before", who'd they take that market share from? Has to be SRAM, doesn't it? Campy is pretty negligible in the US OEM market. That's a definite "decline", isn't it?
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Old 06-26-14, 02:13 PM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by achoo View Post
I'll add I think 6700 and 5700 were solid improvements over their predecessors, though. Those upgrades happened after SRAM grabbed a good bit of the market, too.

And if Shimano is back to "where they really were before", who'd they take that market share from? Has to be SRAM, doesn't it? Campy is pretty negligible in the US OEM market. That's a definite "decline", isn't it?
"decline" in OEM - absolutely.
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Old 06-26-14, 03:00 PM
  #60  
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I don't know about decline but every time I need to replace a part in my bikes I usually go from sram original part to shimano and it's always an upgrade. My mountain stuff has seen more replacing but in general with the mid level stuff (apex, 105, deore, slx, x7 etc) shimano is cheaper and works better. Disc Brakes made by shimano wipe the floor with any sram offering. Derailers are more solid (how many of you have snapped a front cage?), shifting is better (I love the 105 trim, which sram of course does not have), shimano has more cable pull in the levers and the list goes on.
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Old 06-26-14, 03:12 PM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by elcruxio View Post
Derailers are more solid (how many of you have snapped a front cage?),
I had a 105 triple FD bust its spring catch.

Then the Tiagra I replaced it with failed the exact same way after a couple of years.

I've never owned SRAM so can't speak to their longevity, but those are the only FDs I've ever had break.
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Old 06-26-14, 03:28 PM
  #62  
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SRAM is an innovative company and has great ideas but their execution is ****ty. A lot of SRAM products have to be returned from problems. They are good at replacing bad parts but the quality control is bad and still a lot of work for mechanics/stores and leads to unhappy customer experiences. The hydraulic issue was the biggest failure but not the only one.
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Old 06-26-14, 04:10 PM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by donrhummy View Post
SRAM is an innovative company and has great ideas but their execution is ****ty. A lot of SRAM products have to be returned from problems. They are good at replacing bad parts but the quality control is bad and still a lot of work for mechanics/stores and leads to unhappy customer experiences. The hydraulic issue was the biggest failure but not the only one.
Evidence (real evidence)? I have SRAM on both bikes; X9/Avid on mtb (circa 2007); Apex/Rival mix on road (circa 2011). Chain/cassette replacement aside, not a single issue with either; not one.
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Old 06-26-14, 04:21 PM
  #64  
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Quote sales figures or GTFO.
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Old 06-26-14, 04:50 PM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by roadandmountain View Post
Quote sales figures or GTFO.
Right. Because two years ago SRAM was talking about their pending IPO. Obviously that never happened because they've done so well.
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Old 06-26-14, 05:08 PM
  #66  
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From SRAM's IPO filing back in 2011 (three years ago) https://www.nasdaq.com/markets/ipos/c...-855199-67103:

... For each of the year ended December 31, 2010 and the six months ended June 30, 2011, we generated 67% and 64%, respectively, of our net sales from the sale of components in the OEM channel and 33% and 36%, respectively, of our net sales from the sale of components in the aftermarket channel. ...
Given that AFAICT SRAM has almost disappeared as OEM equipment from road bikes, without knowing what their road/MTB split was and is, it's hard to say how much they're hurting. But since they seem to have abandoned their IPO (coincidentally as Shimano's Di2 and improved DA and Ultegra hit the markets...) - it seems quite reasonable to infer that they are hurting somewhat.

I know I also seem to be seeing a lot less Zipp wheels out there as competitors such as November, Boyd, et al have cut into Zipp sales.

Last edited by achoo; 06-26-14 at 05:14 PM.
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Old 06-26-14, 07:24 PM
  #67  
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I can't give an exact figure, but it does seem like a lot fewer bikes are being spec'ed with sram in '14 as opposed to 2-4 years ago.

Shimano does have a reputation for offering the smoothest shifting drivetrains in the business. And that's been the case, at a minimum, for 25 years.

I don't like seeing sram components (cassette, chain) being spec'ed in an otherwise shimano drivetrain.

Shimano has been relentless in perfecting ergonomics, shifting smoothness, braking power and trickling trick features (remember that term?) all the way down the line, making every single component group in their line desirable.
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Old 06-26-14, 07:51 PM
  #68  
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I have a Trek Madone 4 which has Sram Rival. I waited for the 2012 Madone 4.6 just for Rival. But i noticed that they dropped the 4.6 for 2013.

I do notice that all the higher end bikes offer multiple options for Shimano and Sram ranging from 105/Rival to Dura Ace Di2/Red22.

I've ridden both Shimano and Sram and like the Sram shifters better.
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Old 06-26-14, 08:27 PM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by coasting View Post
but what market segment is it aiming at?
Weight weenies with a "limited" budget. I think SRAM has it's place in the roster. The three brands are very distinguishable from each other. Shimano is the all rounder, SRAM is lightweight on a budget and Campy is just italian. The perfect american bike would be a cannon dale super six high mod or S works tarmac with SRAM red and Zipp 404s weighing in at sub 14 pounds.
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Old 06-27-14, 04:25 AM
  #70  
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post


SRAM is not in decline. Not even close.

Shimano has been able to creep back on the OEM side to where they really were before.

FWIW - OEM sales really isn't indicative of anything other than pricing and availability.

Now...some things most consumers aren't aware of:
1. Shimano has had little to no real "boots on the ground" support in the US for a long time. Poor representation, little to no race support at all, etc. \
2. Shimano lost a lot of market share in the US to SRAM when SRAM got serious about road
3. Shimano has reversed a lot of what happened and many of us predicted they would.
4. Shimano has now entered into agreements with USA Cycling to provide neutral support at most if not all US National Championship races.
5. Shimano Neutral support.....I'm not going to say that I have seen it, but I have been told first hand by a lot of racers that they have flat out refused to help riders who were racing with SRAM components. I can confirm that the vast majority of them have been "less helpful" than what we have grown accustomed to with the SRAM Neutral support.
6. Both SRAM and Shimano are in the process of massively changing the availability of component distribution channels in the US. Shimano has essentially gone direct/QBP. SRAM is moving some of their products along that path - like Quarq. Both have made concerted efforts to protect pricing. They both have their eyes set on price erosion.
7. SRAM Electronic - gotta be honest I don't know what all has hit the presses, but we've been seeing the factory guys that have been testing it - riding it - for quite a while now. It seems fairly refined and should be out fairly soon.

IMHO........<--- people still understand what that means right? Shimano pooped the bed with 7900 generation. The 9000 generation is a bit of redemption. The last generation Ultegra and DA kind of suck - going off of the issues I see when doing neutral support at races. SRAM pricing and availability are near impossible to make even considering Shimano aftermarket a tough proposition to justify. Di2...people love it...until they hate it. I think it's fine, but there are still issues. Broken Battery mounts, cut wires, etc.

SRAM isn't on decline. In fact expect to see more product and....most likely higher prices. Yay..
A good post. Will add, I recently installed DA 9000 on my recent bike and removed it after 2 weeks. It is perhaps the best shifting groupset I have ridden but there is NO comparison in hood ergonomics compared to Campy. Shimano as much as it is improved over the crappy DA 7900/Ultegra 6700 generation as you rightly state...hoods still feel like they were conceived in the stone age....hard, non ergonomic with sharp edges all the way around the shifter and lever. Campy is back on my favorite bike and what a relief.
I have yet to spend time with Red or Force 22 but want to at some point. Sram has quickly improved their road groupsets and many believe their latest stuff beats Shimano hands down including my local bike shop where they all ride it.
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Old 06-27-14, 04:31 AM
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Originally Posted by achoo View Post
From SRAM's IPO filing back in 2011 (three years ago) https://www.nasdaq.com/markets/ipos/c...-855199-67103:



Given that AFAICT SRAM has almost disappeared as OEM equipment from road bikes, without knowing what their road/MTB split was and is, it's hard to say how much they're hurting. But since they seem to have abandoned their IPO (coincidentally as Shimano's Di2 and improved DA and Ultegra hit the markets...) - it seems quite reasonable to infer that they are hurting somewhat.

I know I also seem to be seeing a lot less Zipp wheels out there as competitors such as November, Boyd, et al have cut into Zipp sales.
Not even close. You are falsely extrapolating. Sram's revenue stream is much greater than their road groupsets...even if its true they weren't profitable which you don't know...even if volume is diminished.
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Old 06-27-14, 04:33 AM
  #72  
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Originally Posted by roadandmountain View Post
I can't give an exact figure, but it does seem like a lot fewer bikes are being spec'ed with sram in '14 as opposed to 2-4 years ago.

Shimano does have a reputation for offering the smoothest shifting drivetrains in the business. And that's been the case, at a minimum, for 25 years.

I don't like seeing sram components (cassette, chain) being spec'ed in an otherwise shimano drivetrain.

Shimano has been relentless in perfecting ergonomics, shifting smoothness, braking power and trickling trick features (remember that term?) all the way down the line, making every single component group in their line desirable.
Shifting on 7900/6700 was balky and not smooth on many bikes depending on cable routing.
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Old 06-27-14, 04:46 AM
  #73  
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My new for me Soma Double cross has SRAM x9 on it. Best shifting groupset I've ever had. My mtb has an older rock shox tora (SRAM parent company) and its gone 30,000km with zero issues. Couple of crank sets same thing. I honestly think SRAM components are as good as if not better than Shimano.
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Old 06-27-14, 05:25 AM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by krobinson103 View Post
My new for me Soma Double cross has SRAM x9 on it. Best shifting groupset I've ever had. My mtb has an older rock shox tora (SRAM parent company) and its gone 30,000km with zero issues. Couple of crank sets same thing. I honestly think SRAM components are as good as if not better than Shimano.
I too rode X9 on a 29er and to me Sram has the best off road stuff. Its brilliant really. Sram is a formidable player in the bike business on many levels and we are the beneficiaries of their excellent engineering. Their new wireless groupset maybe a bigger watershed than wired electronic shifting and will likely make all the current Shimano and Campy electronic stuff seem primitive if shifting lives up to expectation. Ease of installation is the biggest game changer and will blow everything including cabled mechanical shifting out of the water.
In 5 years, if wireless is successful, it will seriously put a dent in mechanical shifting because of no cables...unlike current wired electronic groupsets. I think the real question will be quantity of mis shifts due to EMI issues...not unlike when my bike computer goes nuts when around power lines. No doubt the issue of 5 bikes in the same peloton will be addressed by coding of signals for each groupset but the EMI issue could be tough nut to crack.

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Old 06-27-14, 07:11 AM
  #75  
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Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
Not even close. You are falsely extrapolating. Sram's revenue stream is much greater than their road groupsets...even if its true they weren't profitable which you don't know...even if volume is diminished.
How am I falsely extrapolating?

SRAM was getting 2/3 of their revenue from OEM sales in 2011, and their presence in the road bike OEM market has fallen off the edge of the Earth since then.

Numerous lower-price competitors to their Zipp wheel line have appeared recently, and AFAICT they're outselling Zipps. I have 3-4 teammates with brand spanking new Rails from November and I don't recall seeing a new set of Zipps in a couple of years.

SRAM has apparently walked away from their IPO plans.

None of those are disputed.

As a private company, no sales figures are available. But none of that paints a rosy picture for SRAM compared to where they were four years ago.
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