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Road Discs - TRP HyRd semi-hydraulic brakes now, or wait for Shimano Hydraulic?

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Road Discs - TRP HyRd semi-hydraulic brakes now, or wait for Shimano Hydraulic?

Old 07-02-14, 03:05 PM
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PaulRivers
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Road Discs - TRP HyRd semi-hydraulic brakes now, or wait for Shimano Hydraulic?

This winter I got into working out. I've increase my flexibility, core strength, etc, and this spring I've found that my bike just seems to be to small for me.

I test rode a Volagi Viage (they really gotta come up with a name you can actually pronounce, lol). It's the steel version of their bike, it's supposedly the most comfortable road bike you can buy, and in my short test ride it sure seemed like it. Way more comfortable over bumps than the Giant Defy Advanced that I rode, didn't have the dead feeling of the Trek Domane 4, wasn't overly stiff feeling like the Trek Domane 5, and it's steering wasn't twitchy like the Specialized Roubaix. (Disclaimer, lol, feel free to disagree, but those were my personal opinions from the test rides.)

Probably the only thing I wasn't fond of was that it comes with disc brakes. One is my winter bike with Shimano Alfine on it - breaks squeal after getting wet, occassionally sometimes squeal when not wet, and if you take the front wheel off and put it back on again the brakes rub slightly. My mountain bike (I think Avid brakes, not 100% sure) is basically the same but more obnoxious - road it once in the snow, and the brakes squealed any time you stopped the next summer. Etc. For both these bikes I'm willing to put up with the problem because of the benefits of disc brakes (don't want to burn through my wheel rim on my winter bike, don't need to ride in anything wet on my mountain bike).

But on my road bike it's a huge annoyance. However, I read up on the Trp HyRd brakes that come with the Volagi Viage (is that pronounced like mirage? seriously people, choose a name you can pronounce...) and read a lot of people who had complained about squealing and brake rub on Avid brakes saying the Trp HyRd brakes specifically made these problem go away - no squeal even when wet, no brake rub when taking the front wheel on and off again.

Naturally, after getting excited, I then read Trp HyRd (and how do you pronounce that??) brakes do this by having some sort of short cable run, then turning into hydraulic brakes for the rest of the run. And Shimano is coming out with full hydraulic disc brakes - this fall.

So my question is - do you think the Shimano full hydraulic brakes are going to be better in the long run than the Trp HyRd mostly-hydraulic brakes that are available now? My dilemma is that I'm stuck riding a to-small bike this summer if I wait for the Shimano full hydraulic to come out. Plus of course, you never know if when they do come out they'll end up having issues. I understand that the TrpHyRd brakes had some issues when they were first released.

P.S. Sorry, wrote way to much, highlighted in bold my main question above.
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Old 07-02-14, 03:40 PM
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Shimano hydraulic disc brakes are already out. As for rub & squealing....learn to adjust your brakes, pads, etc.. learn how to true your rotors. I have no squeal...ever.
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Old 07-02-14, 08:04 PM
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I have a Volagi Liscio which was originally equipped with the BB7s. The BB7s worked fine and I don't recall any particular problem with adjustment or squealing (unlike on our tandem). Removing and replacing the front wheel shouldn't cause a problem. About 6 months ago I switched to the TRP HyRd brakes, not because I didn't like the BB7s but because I'm an old geek. I love the TRPs; they are even better than the BB7s and do self adjust. The TRPs use the same cable run but feature a the hydraulic reservoir built into the caliper assembly.

I'm 180 lbs and on long, steep descents I get no fade whatsoever and never feel as though I'm braking hard. The modulation on these brakes is terrific.
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Old 07-02-14, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by UnfilteredDregs View Post
Shimano hydraulic disc brakes are already out.
Pretty sure they're not, and they're definitely not available for the bike I'm looking for several months.

Only ones that are available are the electronic-shifting-only version. The mechanical version is new this year and either isn't out or isn't actually available yet.

Originally Posted by UnfilteredDregs View Post
As for rub & squealing....learn to adjust your brakes, pads, etc.. learn how to true your rotors. I have no squeal...ever.
Not looking to invest more time and energy than I would with rim brakes where you set them up once when you install them and that's it. Ran across many blog posts saying the same thing I had found about squealing and rubbing.

Last edited by PaulRivers; 07-02-14 at 10:37 PM.
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Old 07-02-14, 10:36 PM
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Originally Posted by rdtompki View Post
I have a Volagi Liscio which was originally equipped with the BB7s. The BB7s worked fine and I don't recall any particular problem with adjustment or squealing (unlike on our tandem). Removing and replacing the front wheel shouldn't cause a problem. About 6 months ago I switched to the TRP HyRd brakes, not because I didn't like the BB7s but because I'm an old geek. I love the TRPs; they are even better than the BB7s and do self adjust. The TRPs use the same cable run but feature a the hydraulic reservoir built into the caliper assembly.

I'm 180 lbs and on long, steep descents I get no fade whatsoever and never feel as though I'm braking hard. The modulation on these brakes is terrific.
Hey, thanks for your comment! Have you ridden them in the rain or right after a rain where they'd get wet?

I've read that the cause of the rubbing is that the pad on cable brakes has to be very very close to the rotor. If you take the front wheel off and put it on again, you can end up with the wheel in a very very slightly different position which causes rubbing. Supposedly there is more room with hydraulic brakes, for some reason the hydraulic design doesn't cause the pads to need to be as close, and they self adjust as well so it eliminates it as a problem. Supposedly.

If TRPs work as good or better than rim brakes, with no drawbacks, I'll probably go that route...

What do you think of the ride quality of your Liscio? Do you think it lives up to it's comfort claims? Any other thoughts on the bike? :-)
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Old 07-03-14, 12:53 AM
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The TRP setup is slick. Works fairly good/great. Had a teammate who was on first generation Parabox from Tektro who swapped to the TRPs last season and loves them. He's coming from a huge mtb background as well.

I'd stick with mechanical on the road for now. Wait for good integrated systems that are complete hydraulic for better overall performance. The only drawback on the mechanical being the constant pad wear and gap adjustment.

Rears its head in bad conditions. In cross back in Louisville I watched guys go through pads completely - even on warmup laps. A lot of us talked about it at the time and all agreed disc was done in cross until full hydraulic was there. Last year's recalls have delayed it, but I have decided to field a hydraulic disc this fall and am talking to a frame OEM about getting both a hydraulic cross and road frame for demo/show bikes.
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Old 07-03-14, 01:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post
The TRP setup is slick. Works fairly good/great. Had a teammate who was on first generation Parabox from Tektro who swapped to the TRPs last season and loves them. He's coming from a huge mtb background as well.

I'd stick with mechanical on the road for now. Wait for good integrated systems that are complete hydraulic for better overall performance. The only drawback on the mechanical being the constant pad wear and gap adjustment.

Rears its head in bad conditions. In cross back in Louisville I watched guys go through pads completely - even on warmup laps. A lot of us talked about it at the time and all agreed disc was done in cross until full hydraulic was there. Last year's recalls have delayed it, but I have decided to field a hydraulic disc this fall and am talking to a frame OEM about getting both a hydraulic cross and road frame for demo/show bikes.
Then again the pad wear and adjustment really isn't a problem if the pads are properly bedded in and "heat treated". Especially in the road pad wear should be minimal.

I had avid bb7's in my mtb last winter and didn't have to adjust once.

Makes me wonder if the crossers burning through pads had them properly bedded.... I hear from the mountain world that a pad will burn through very quickly especially in dirty conditions if the pads have not been bedded.

Of course it's not really the bedding but the heat treat that the pads get. Go fast and stop hard 30 times in a row. Or it's superstition. Has worked for me.
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Old 07-03-14, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by PaulRivers View Post
Pretty sure they're not, and they're definitely not available for the bike I'm looking for several months.

Only ones that are available are the electronic-shifting-only version. The mechanical version is new this year and either isn't out or isn't actually available yet.


August release as per Shimano for the Hyd/Mech...


Originally Posted by PaulRivers View Post
Not looking to invest more time and energy than I would with rim brakes where you set them up once when you install them and that's it. Ran across many blog posts saying the same thing I had found about squealing and rubbing.
That's a goofy notion. Mechanical disc brakes require as minimal an effort as conventional rim brakes in terms of adjustment...personally I find them easier to deal with. We're talking about a couple of clicks on a knob, maybe a hex wrench adjustment, etc.. in order to close in the pads...truing a rotor is as simple as sighting it with good light behind the brake pads so you can see the rotor flange relative to the pads as it spins, and then using a truing fork to simply bend the rotor true.

Yeah, I agree lots of folks have problems with squealing, and that's because they don't know how to set up their brakes and neither do the shop mechs apparently.

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Old 07-03-14, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by elcruxio View Post
Then again the pad wear and adjustment really isn't a problem if the pads are properly bedded in and "heat treated". Especially in the road pad wear should be minimal.

I had avid bb7's in my mtb last winter and didn't have to adjust once.

Makes me wonder if the crossers burning through pads had them properly bedded.... I hear from the mountain world that a pad will burn through very quickly especially in dirty conditions if the pads have not been bedded.

Of course it's not really the bedding but the heat treat that the pads get. Go fast and stop hard 30 times in a row. Or it's superstition. Has worked for me.
I've been riding BB7's for going on 3 years now. Bedding the pads and rotor in is critical for seemingly nice performance. Cross didn't really afford that opportunity and the races were horrible conditions enough that the guys were running out of brake within 1 lap.

A non issue for recreational use on the road, but in general with my experiences with Disc and after being a huge proponent of it, I have come to the conclusion that it is still a little too far away from being refined enough for regular use across road or even cross applications for the time being. Mechanical actuation for disc just...just wait for hydraulic. IMHO
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Old 07-03-14, 10:10 AM
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I believe the TRPs are intended to provide some of the benefits of hydraulic discs while being usable with cables - especially, the auto-centering feature, which is a major perk of hydros over mechanicals*. But you don't get the modulation advantages of hydraulic discs. If you must have discs now and are still on 10-speed systems, the TRPs are the ones to get, but my preference would be to hold out for the fully hydraulic Shimano system. The Shimano brakes are also clearly technically superior to the TRP and SRAM systems, so there's that, too.


*Distinguishing hydraulic from cable-operated brakes by calling the cabled brakes "mechanical" sets my teeth on edge, because hydraulics are every bit as much a mechanical system as a Bowden cable. But we now seem to be stuck with this nomenclature. Damn it.
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Old 07-03-14, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post
The TRP setup is slick. Works fairly good/great. Had a teammate who was on first generation Parabox from Tektro who swapped to the TRPs last season and loves them. He's coming from a huge mtb background as well.
Thanks for the feedback.

Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post
I'd stick with mechanical on the road for now. Wait for good integrated systems that are complete hydraulic for better overall performance. The only drawback on the mechanical being the constant pad wear and gap adjustment.
Yeah, but that's to big of a drawback for me. I'm done with mechanical disc, had to many problems so far. My dad also had mechanical disk, he even replaced his bb5's with bb7's - continued to have the same problems. Frankly, I've loved everything else about the bike, but if they offered a rim brake version I'd get that. Less hassle.

Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post
Rears its head in bad conditions. In cross back in Louisville I watched guys go through pads completely - even on warmup laps. A lot of us talked about it at the time and all agreed disc was done in cross until full hydraulic was there. Last year's recalls have delayed it, but I have decided to field a hydraulic disc this fall and am talking to a frame OEM about getting both a hydraulic cross and road frame for demo/show bikes.
Yup. I continue to read good things about TRP, even if it's not technically full hydro...becoming more convinced that it will be fine. It's a road bike - if I get slightly less braking power or something it's fine, just don't want to deal with the rubbing and squealing issues.
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Old 07-03-14, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by UnfilteredDregs View Post
Right, it's the beginning of July now, August at least a month away. I've been told that Shimano saying that something will be "available" often means it's available for order, but you can't actually get it for a couple of months.

Originally Posted by UnfilteredDregs View Post
That's a goofy notion. Mechanical disc brakes require as minimal an effort as conventional rim brakes in terms of adjustment...personally I find them easier to deal with. We're talking about a couple of clicks on a knob, maybe a hex wrench adjustment, etc.. in order to close in the pads...truing a rotor is as simple as sighting it with good light behind the brake pads so you can see the rotor flange relative to the pads as it spins, and then using a truing fork to simply bend the rotor true.
Yeah, I agree lots of folks have problems with squealing, and that's because they don't know how to set up their brakes and neither do the shop mechs apparently.[/QUOTE]

I don't know that I agree, but even if that was the case it still leaves me with my brakes squealing and being annoying. I've wasted time going down that road before - if most bike mechanics can't get it to work, I'm sure not going to be able to.
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Old 07-03-14, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post
I've been riding BB7's for going on 3 years now. Bedding the pads and rotor in is critical for seemingly nice performance. Cross didn't really afford that opportunity and the races were horrible conditions enough that the guys were running out of brake within 1 lap.

A non issue for recreational use on the road, but in general with my experiences with Disc and after being a huge proponent of it, I have come to the conclusion that it is still a little too far away from being refined enough for regular use across road or even cross applications for the time being. Mechanical actuation for disc just...just wait for hydraulic. IMHO
Thanks for your thoughts and experience, fyi.

It still sounds like TRP's might be good enough or they might not...blerg.
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Old 07-03-14, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by grolby View Post
I believe the TRPs are intended to provide some of the benefits of hydraulic discs while being usable with cables - especially, the auto-centering feature, which is a major perk of hydros over mechanicals*. But you don't get the modulation advantages of hydraulic discs. If you must have discs now and are still on 10-speed systems, the TRPs are the ones to get, but my preference would be to hold out for the fully hydraulic Shimano system. The Shimano brakes are also clearly technically superior to the TRP and SRAM systems, so there's that, too.

*Distinguishing hydraulic from cable-operated brakes by calling the cabled brakes "mechanical" sets my teeth on edge, because hydraulics are every bit as much a mechanical system as a Bowden cable. But we now seem to be stuck with this nomenclature. Damn it.
I don't think they're limited to 10 speeds aren't they? The Ultegra 11 speed build comes with the TRP HyRd -
Viaje / Shimano Ultegra 11 Speed | Volagi

You mentioned they are "clearly technically superior", while I don't doubt that full hydraulic should be superior, since they're not out yet it might turn out that they have issues in reality. I know the TRP HyRd has some issues when they first came out that they solved.
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Old 07-03-14, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by PaulRivers View Post
I don't know that I agree, but even if that was the case it still leaves me with my brakes squealing and being annoying. I've wasted time going down that road before - if most bike mechanics can't get it to work, I'm sure not going to be able to.
Well, I don't know what to tell you...other than it begins with proper bedding, and some simple sighting for adjustments. What makes you think you won't have the same issues with a hybrid hyd/mech system?
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Old 07-03-14, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by UnfilteredDregs View Post
Well, I don't know what to tell you...other than it begins with proper bedding, and some simple sighting for adjustments. What makes you think you won't have the same issues with a hybrid hyd/mech system?
The hybrid system is, as I understand it, basically hydraulic, the only mechanical part is a short cable from the shifter to the hydraulic part. The modulation might not quite be as direct and fantastic, but the place where I've had the problem - the pad contacting the rotor - is hydraulic.

I've read a lot of people say it eliminated rubbing or squealing vs the Avid bb7's they had. Though I can't be 100% certain it will eliminate the problems - a lot of times people write "this fixed my problem!" but if it didn't fix their problem they just stay quiet.

I'm certain I don't want to go with cable brakes because I've had to much trouble with them. Unfortunately, hydraulic is my best bet, but I'm not 100% certain it will solve my problem either. Like I said, I just really really like the rest of the bike - but if it came in a rim brake version I'd get that and not take the risk.
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Old 07-03-14, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by PaulRivers View Post
I don't think they're limited to 10 speeds aren't they? The Ultegra 11 speed build comes with the TRP HyRd -
Viaje / Shimano Ultegra 11 Speed | Volagi

You mentioned they are "clearly technically superior", while I don't doubt that full hydraulic should be superior, since they're not out yet it might turn out that they have issues in reality. I know the TRP HyRd has some issues when they first came out that they solved.
What I mean is that the Shimano hydraulic brake/shift levers are for 11-speed drivetrains only. So I'm saying if you don't want to upgrade to 11, mechanical discs are pretty much the only option, and the TRP hybrids seems like the best out of them.

As for my reference to technical superiority, I meant specifically that Shimano's road hydraulics are superior to SRAM's full hydraulic brakes and TRP's hybrids. Obviously full hydraulic is a better system than using cables, but Shimano also has better cooling, sleeker calipers and has managed to avoid any recalls so far with their Di2 hydros. The jury is out on the non-Di2 version, obviously, but I'm impressed by the way they've managed to keep the lever body so small, without the giant horns you see on the SRAM levers.
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Old 07-03-14, 01:08 PM
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I have noticed that squeal is usuallu due to oil on disc. People think that not touching the braking surface with a finger or hand is no biggie but it is, it really is.

fortunately there is a ridiculously easy solution for oiled discs and pads. Clean the disc with pure ethanol (not denatured, that leaves a residue) or some other fully vaporizing degreasing agent (brake cleaner works as well). Pop the pads in the oven for half an hour at 392 fahrenheit. Assemble and now you have a non squealy brake system with renewed power.

I did that with my mtb and nearly otb'd at first braking due to the new found power
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Old 07-03-14, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by grolby View Post
What I mean is that the Shimano hydraulic brake/shift levers are for 11-speed drivetrains only. So I'm saying if you don't want to upgrade to 11, mechanical discs are pretty much the only option, and the TRP hybrids seems like the best out of them.

As for my reference to technical superiority, I meant specifically that Shimano's road hydraulics are superior to SRAM's full hydraulic brakes and TRP's hybrids. Obviously full hydraulic is a better system than using cables, but Shimano also has better cooling, sleeker calipers and has managed to avoid any recalls so far with their Di2 hydros. The jury is out on the non-Di2 version, obviously, but I'm impressed by the way they've managed to keep the lever body so small, without the giant horns you see on the SRAM levers.
Also shimano mtb brakes are best on the market currently. Gotta love that servo wave
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Old 07-03-14, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by grolby View Post
What I mean is that the Shimano hydraulic brake/shift levers are for 11-speed drivetrains only. So I'm saying if you don't want to upgrade to 11, mechanical discs are pretty much the only option, and the TRP hybrids seems like the best out of them.
Oh, right, sorry - misunderstood you.

Originally Posted by grolby View Post
As for my reference to technical superiority, I meant specifically that Shimano's road hydraulics are superior to SRAM's full hydraulic brakes and TRP's hybrids. Obviously full hydraulic is a better system than using cables, but Shimano also has better cooling, sleeker calipers and has managed to avoid any recalls so far with their Di2 hydros. The jury is out on the non-Di2 version, obviously, but I'm impressed by the way they've managed to keep the lever body so small, without the giant horns you see on the SRAM levers.
Oh right, that's true - Shimano has had their di2 version out for a year haven't they? Their new cable version seems like it's mostly just like the di2 version, except obviously it doesn't require di2. Having a similar previous version does increase the odds their won't be problems with it...

In what ways do you think the Shimano version is "technically superior"? I mean obviously it's full hydraulic vs the TRP's, and evidentally physically smaller vs Sram. Anything else important comes to mind?
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Old 07-03-14, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by elcruxio View Post
I have noticed that squeal is usuallu due to oil on disc. People think that not touching the braking surface with a finger or hand is no biggie but it is, it really is.

fortunately there is a ridiculously easy solution for oiled discs and pads. Clean the disc with pure ethanol (not denatured, that leaves a residue) or some other fully vaporizing degreasing agent (brake cleaner works as well). Pop the pads in the oven for half an hour at 392 fahrenheit. Assemble and now you have a non squealy brake system with renewed power.

I did that with my mtb and nearly otb'd at first braking due to the new found power
Squeal is usually because the rotor got wet.

I mean frankly, if the solution was that easy - one would think the companies themselves would do that to rotors before shipping them.

I've tried some of the cutesy solutions - "you gotta brake hard with the pads to set them a few times and that will clear it up", or "it's oil, they won't squeal if you clean them", and those would get rid of squeal that was still happening after they got wet, but as soon as they got wet again it would come back.

I mean seriously, if baking your pads consistently dramatically increased braking power like you say, they'd just do it at the factory.
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Old 07-03-14, 02:15 PM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by PaulRivers View Post
Squeal is usually because the rotor got wet.

I mean frankly, if the solution was that easy - one would think the companies themselves would do that to rotors before shipping them.

I've tried some of the cutesy solutions - "you gotta brake hard with the pads to set them a few times and that will clear it up", or "it's oil, they won't squeal if you clean them", and those would get rid of squeal that was still happening after they got wet, but as soon as they got wet again it would come back.

I mean seriously, if baking your pads consistently dramatically increased braking power like you say, they'd just do it at the factory.

If you have oil on your discs or pads you need to get rid of it. After that's gone most of the squeal should disappear.

Although with my mtb i have noticed that swamp water does make the brakes noisy again. Then i just heat them on some descent and dry 'em out. Normal water does not seem to cause problems for me.

and companies most likely do clean the discs and pads prior to shipping. It would be bad business to ship out badly working brakes (looking at you avid hydraulic division). But there are also many places a disc can get oiled from. Road surface can be one, or oiling your chain, or any one of a myriad of reasons. Luckily the cure is so simple.

btw. The pads cannot be cleaned with degreaser. They need to be baked. If you just clean both the pad will just transmit the oil back on the disc since the pad sucks oil like a sponge. Burning it off by baking is by far the best solution.
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Old 07-03-14, 02:20 PM
  #23  
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Originally Posted by elcruxio View Post
If you have oil on your discs or pads you need to get rid of it. After that's gone most of the squeal should disappear.
If you think that's going to get rid of squeal in the rain, that's about as effective as using a lucky rabbit's foot or dosing your bike in holy water.

[/QUOTE]Although with my mtb i have noticed that swamp water does make the brakes noisy again. Then i just heat them on some descent and dry 'em out. Normal water does not seem to cause problems for me.[/QUOTE]

Definitely does for me - sometimes it goes away when they get dry again. Sometimes not.

Originally Posted by elcruxio View Post
and companies most likely do clean the discs and pads prior to shipping. It would be bad business to ship out badly working brakes (looking at you avid hydraulic division). But there are also many places a disc can get oiled from. Road surface can be one, or oiling your chain, or any one of a myriad of reasons. Luckily the cure is so simple.

btw. The pads cannot be cleaned with degreaser. They need to be baked. If you just clean both the pad will just transmit the oil back on the disc since the pad sucks oil like a sponge. Burning it off by baking is by far the best solution.
Ok. Even if this was the case, it's still very annoying and something I don't need to do with rim brakes. If it just needed to be done once, I would think manufacturers would do it. Don't have the time to do it after every time it rains or they get wet.
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Old 07-03-14, 02:41 PM
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This is a funny assed conversation...I've never baked my pads, and I get water, dirt, grime, grease, oil, etc.. all over my bike...I do wash it rather frequently...meaning weekly or after a particularly nasty ride, and I'm not particularly neat with the application of lube.

Mr. Cruxio...what material are your pads?
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Old 07-03-14, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by UnfilteredDregs View Post
This is a funny assed conversation...I've never baked my pads, and I get water, dirt, grime, grease, oil, etc.. all over my bike...I do wash it rather frequently...meaning weekly or after a particularly nasty ride, and I'm not particularly neat with the application of lube.

Mr. Cruxio...what material are your pads?
Stock shimano. They seem to be pretty sensitive to oil...
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