sandman

I've been entertaining thoughts of a new ride for sometime now and have done quite a bit of research. I've narrowed down the field to either a Waterford RSExx or Rivendell Rambouillet and it will be used for all my road riding other then touring (have a Trek 520).

From my research, both seem to offer the quality and features I'm looking for as well as the all important lust factor. I've never ridden either or even seen a Riv in person and not having an lbs nearby that carries either compounds the dilemma. I guess what I'm asking here is for something that might move me one way or the other in the decision process. Some facts and opinions from owners or others who have considered these 2 bikes.

BTW, I realize this is a "good" problem and while it doesn't keep me up at night I'm getting itchy to pull the trigger. Thanks in advance.

BikeInMN

You may also want to add the Kogswell model P into the mix. It's very similar to the Rambouillet (same geometry, etc) and prices are a bit lower. I hear the new batch has a really nice paint job. Here are a couple of links for you. The prices I've seen them quote may actually be lower than listed on the website depending on the size you need (60cm frames being the most popular).

https://www.kogswell.com/p.html

https://www.kogswell.com/

And last but not least

https://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/KOG/

fsor

I have a kogswell P60 and saw a Rambouillet at the Solvang century. I have not tried the Ram but it is quite a bit better done in finish and so forth than the Kogs. The fork has a very nice curve that is not seen in a Kog. The waterfords that I have seen were very nicely done but I would need to see the Riv. and a Waterford side by side to judge. Personally? I would spend more than the Kog and get more. Rivendell and Waterford give you a phone number where you can actually talk to someone, Kog is rather catch as catch can by e-mail in my experience. YMMV

halfspeed

I've seen the Kogswells and Rivendells up close and the Waterfords in passing. The chief benefit of the Kog over the Riv is the greatly reduced cost. Kogs are around $800 shipped, Rambouillet is $1300 and going up. Waterford is even more with prices starting at $1300 without a fork. (Rivs come with a fork and headset.)

The price differential between the Waterford and the Riv is largely because all Waterfords are made to measure while Rambouillet comes in standard sizes and geometries and no color choice. Of the Waterfords I've seen on the road, though, I've never seen one with an especially fancy paint job (although incredible paint options exist at additional charges).

That said, you should also consider Heron, built in the Waterford plant and at a similar cost to the Rivendells. Going overseas, British builders like Mercian and Bob Jackson are a great value. These small British companies tend to be much more affordable (even with the bad exchange rates) while still offering made to measure sizing and many paint options. I bought a Mercian. $900 to $1300 is a reasonable range for a frame and fork.

But, if you're determined to get either the Waterford or the Riv, get the Waterford if you know =exactly= what you want and can communicate it to them. Otherwise, save some money and get the Rambouillet.

late

Hi,
Waterford has a budget line called Gunnar. I got one a week ago.
So you can add that to the list. There are others, btw. Lots of good
steel frame makers out there.

I'd start with setting a budget. Pick a figure you can live with, and then live within it. My first choice would have been Waterford, that was a few too many $$, so I got something cheaper.

Personally, I have never ridden a Rivendell. I have seen them, they are very pretty. I suspect Waterford makes a better bike, but as a previous poster mentioned, style is not their strong suit. In any case, my understanding is that the RSE is nowhere near as retro as the Rambouillet.

MICHAELM

I found a used Waterford last October. I have enjoyed the ride so much that I am switching my components from my "retired" Cannondale to a new Waterford frame. I can't tell you about the other builders but I do know there are plenty good ones. The Waterford is an excellent ride with the classic Paramount geometry. Good luck in your search.

midgie

For the price and ETA of a riv, you might want to check out a Heron.
www.heronbicycles.com
There beautiful and comfortable geometry.

Thylacine

I've had dealings with Dave Kirk and he's a nice guy. Oh yeah, he also does great lugged frames - traditional, but less obvious than an Riv or Waterford.

https://www.kirkframeworks.com/

Give love to the little guy!

-Warwick ( tediously supporting the little guy since he became one )

midgie

Heron Bicycles is also a little guy. They only build the frames at waterford, Heron is owned by
Todd Kuzma in La Salle,IL. And if they have your size and choice of color in stock. You could have your bike in a week. If not in stock, it could be about 3 weeks. You'll wait 3 months for the riv. Don't get me wrong I love Rivendel and Grant Petersen. But it is already April. Of course if I had the money I'd go for the custom Waterford, and have it in time for next season.

sandman

Wow, thanks for all the quick responses.

First, I want to say that while budget is not really an issue for me and with my wife urging me on (I know, we should all have this problem), psychologically I've drawn a line at $3k, but would like to try to stay well under. This probably eliminates the custom approach.

Not being able to ride either requires an expensive leap of faith. I expect this to be my last bike purchase (heard that before) and I'm not in a rush to make a decision as I have other bikes, 2 of which I need to sell to make some room.

I have looked at the other bikes mentioned (Heron, Kogs, Pacenti etc), and while they all are impressive for one reason or another have narrowed it down to the Waterford and Rivendell. I've seen Waterfords and I'm impressed and I haven't seen a Riv, but I've gotten caught up in the Riv philosophy (to a point) and the reviews from Riv riders is always favorable.

What I'm still hoping for is some comparison between the RSE & Rambouillet or am I mixing apples & oranges? Has anyone had any negative experiences with either company?

MICHAELM

I visited the Waterford facility last week. Not like visiting a Ford plant; but, nevertheless, it was really kinda neat.

midgie

Did you get to meet Richard? I love Richard.

Wildwood 

When I lived in CA, I visited the Rivendell factory on 3 occasions. Rode a Rambo 2 times about 20 - 30 minutes each time and I absolutely loved the ride characteristics, but the only color (at the time) was the orange which I absolutely hated. My only experience riding a Waterford was at Interbike and while the frame was not my exact size I was somewhat underwhelmed given the price. I bought a custom lugged frame from a small builder, Jon Tallerico, and have never regretted the choice. Gunnar's reputation locally is excellent value and good ride.

If you've got a bike today, resist the temptation to pull the trigger until you have satisfied your need to investigate the possibilities. GVHbikes.com, Vanilla, Strong, etc. the list is very long. Almost all the major manufacturers have decent steel bikes at good prices but without the cachet of a smaller builder.

sandman

I'm now leaning towards the Rivendell. One of the reasons for that is that I'm able to keep it within my 3k budget which is difficult with the Waterford. I've got a couple of trips planned this year which will take me near Peter White and the Rivendell and I'll get to see some before purchasing.

Thanks to everyone for the help.
Sandy

late

Huh?
You can easily get an RSE for $3K. If you get the chance ride one, so you can compare it with a Rambouillet before you pull the trigger.

MICHAELM

No, I did not get the chance to meet him. I was on my way to pick up my new bike....which wasn't quite ready.

Kogswell Cycles

We have a good stock of Model P frames just in.

What size are you looking for?

Matthew

Kogswell Cycles

If you ever want to unburden yourself of your P60, please let me know.

And BTW, I have Rambouillet owners buying Mod. P forks as replacements; something about improved ride quality.

And regarding communication, when I'm not running Kogswell I special ed teach full time. I'd like to play bicycle all day long, but I'd feel kinda silly if I wasn't making some kind of a difference in the world.

Matthew

fsor

I doubt that there is a swarm of Rambouillet owners trashing fine forks for Kogswell...your production is simply too small. You remember my P60? The one with the creased chainstay...you checked the rest of your stock and announced they were ALL like that? Direct quotes below
Yesterday I was cleaning the
> frame saver off preparatory
> to taking it into the LBS to have the head tube
> reamed and faced and the
> fork installed. It has a bulged or buckled chainstay
> (left) that appears to
> have been done during the build. The paint shows no
> deformation or crazing
> and there was no sign of impact. The box (which I
> still have) is in good
> shape. The bulge is about 10mil high perpendicular
> to the stay about 3" aft
> of the bridge that the fender mounts to. The bulge
> is on the outside and
> runs the full height of the tube. I took it to the
> LBS and the
> proprietor/mechanic seems to think that the tube
> probably buckled when they
> spread it to receive the lugs during brazing. There
> isn't a scratch or ding
> on the frame anywhere and again, no shipping damage.
> It is pretty obvious to
> me that the frame was painted after the bulge
> formed. I can give you contact
Ø info for the LBS (they have no axe to grind)

Grimms Fairy Tale:
“I looked at all the unboxed Ps that I have and they're
all have that dimple.”
“So the diagnosis is: unsightly but useful.”

PS have degree in metallurgy...I know a failed tube when I see it. But I don't teach special ed.

But hey, you're making a difference in the world, in between "hippies in walnut creek" wisecracks on your yahoo forum.
Yes folk there is a diff between Kogs and Rivendell.

midgie

Wow, maybe a PM would have been called for here, but then again....