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I feel cycling is the biggest rip off money wise and who makes it?

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I feel cycling is the biggest rip off money wise and who makes it?

Old 07-29-14, 09:39 AM
  #126  
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Originally Posted by EnellCH View Post
An alternative view on the topic:
Cycling (assuming you do a fair amount year round) may be the best investment you ever make! The long and short term health benefits (mental, physical, social, work) may far outweigh the investment in gear? Think about the alternative cost of not doing it.
You could do the same with a used steel off Craigslist... So I don't buy into your view. Your SRAM Force 22 isn't going to offer any more performance or health benefits over a used Craigslist with Shimano 105.

If I'm basing my purchase on mental/physical wellness, I'd just buy a good pair of running shoes for $50 and run. I'd get fitter and healther running than cycling faster. And overall health better as well since runners tend to have a better overall physical fitness. Upper body, core, even legs and most of all bone health. Cycling being very low impact, cyclist bone density suffers. Pro cyclists break their leg bones often I would think because of that, their bones simply aren't that strong if they aren't doing other high impact training.

Last edited by zymphad; 07-29-14 at 09:46 AM.
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Old 07-29-14, 09:41 AM
  #127  
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I'll be in my 2013 CBR500r otherwise known as a 800 dollar Scott bicycle getting 65-70mpg, up to 105mph and looking like a supersport bike in a way. Oh yeah, as fast or faster than a VW GTI for 1/4 the price of a new VW GTI.

Good Lord those 800 dollar Scott bikes are a bargain.

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Old 07-29-14, 09:43 AM
  #128  
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Originally Posted by zymphad View Post
Think of the alternative of buying a Cervelo than say a factory direct bike? That bike isn't going to make you slower or be less durable... So you get the same level of physical and mental health benefit.
Sure. Thats the benefit of a free market and market competition.
(I still choose Cervelo over anything else, anyday. Cycling is as much an emotional sport as anything else)
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Old 07-29-14, 09:43 AM
  #129  
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Originally Posted by zymphad View Post
Think of the alternative of buying a Cervelo than say a factory direct bike? That bike isn't going to make you slower or be less durable... So you get the same level of physical and mental health benefit.
whoa....no logic allowed in the 41
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Old 07-29-14, 09:45 AM
  #130  
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Don't hate expensive bikes. Love that there are people who enjoy them and that such purchases end up subsidizing the development of all those really nice lower-end bikes. Without the innovators and early adopters the early majority wouldn't know what's cool.
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Old 07-29-14, 09:48 AM
  #131  
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Originally Posted by EnellCH View Post
Sure. Thats the benefit of a free market and market competition.
(I still choose Cervelo over anything else, anyday. Cycling is as much an emotional sport as anything else)
That's material attachment. Emotion in sports I don't relate to material possession. That's different. I can have an emotional material attachment to anything like I do with my speakers... I can get the same level of emotional enjoyment out of running with a cheap New Balance as I can with a more expensive Saucony Mirage.

Originally Posted by DrPete View Post
Don't hate expensive bikes. Love that there are people who enjoy them and that such purchases end up subsidizing the development of all those really nice lower-end bikes. Without the innovators and early adopters the early majority wouldn't know what's cool.
That's no the point of this thread. It's not bashing those who buy expensive bikes. I know from other thread you just spend a boatload on a custom Linskey Ti for example. It's just a discussinon do you think your expensive bike is worth that...

For example do you really think Parlee are worth what they are selling for? They are using pre-made tubes which they cut to length. And they use normal pre-preg unidirectional carbon cloth to "weld" the tubes together. This is not a high skill labor job, a monkey could do this. And they aren't manufacturing or using any special materials. Nor are they using special tools. I've seen their shop, it looks like a garage filled with high school drop-outs who were too busy skate boarding/cycling and skiing.

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Old 07-29-14, 09:55 AM
  #132  
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Originally Posted by zymphad View Post
You could do the same with a used steel off Craigslist... So I don't buy into your view. Your SRAM Force 22 isn't going to offer any more performance or health benefits over a used Craigslist with Shimano 105.

If I'm basing my purchase on mental/physical wellness, I'd just buy a good pair of running shoes for $50 and run. I'd get fitter and healther running than cycling faster.
You absolutely don't need fancy (or any) equipment to get in shape. But if you're not having fun, you're not going to last. Besides, why would someone not put their money where they invest all their time and passion. To not do that is a waste.

I wonder how long people who base their purchase on the physical benefits last. May as well buy food based purely on nutritional content.
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Old 07-29-14, 09:58 AM
  #133  
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Originally Posted by zymphad View Post
For example do you really think Parlee are worth what they are selling for? They are using pre-made tubes which they cut to length. And they use normal pre-preg unidirectional carbon cloth to "weld" the tubes together. This is not a high skill labor job, a monkey could do this. And they aren't manufacturing or using any special materials. Nor are they using special tools. I've seen their shop, it looks like a garage filled with high school drop-outs who were too busy skate boarding/cycling and skiing.
I look forward to seeing your My2016 products at Eurobike.
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Old 07-29-14, 09:58 AM
  #134  
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Originally Posted by zymphad View Post
That's material attachment. Emotion in sports I don't relate to material possession. That's different. I can have an emotional material attachment to anything like I do with my speakers... I can get the same level of emotional enjoyment out of running with a cheap New Balance as I can with a more expensive Saucony Mirage.





That's no the point of this thread. It's not bashing those who buy expensive bikes. I know from other thread you just spend a boatload on a custom Linskey Ti for example. It's just a discussinon do you think your expensive bike is worth that...

For example do you really think Parlee are worth what they are selling for? They are using pre-made tubes which they cut to length. And they use normal pre-preg unidirectional carbon cloth to "weld" the tubes together. This is not a high skill labor job, a monkey could do this. And they aren't manufacturing or using any special materials. Nor are they using special tools. I've seen their shop, it looks like a garage filled with high school drop-outs who were too busy skate boarding/cycling and skiing.
"Value" is relative to the buyer. I am sure the greeks debated this topic far before carbon bikes existed. You will find as many opinions as you ask people in the cycling world. A great thing is we are all free to choose our poison.
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Old 07-29-14, 09:59 AM
  #135  
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Originally Posted by banerjek View Post
I wonder how long people who base their purchase on the physical benefits last. May as well buy food based purely on nutritional content.
Might want to read the posts I was replying to.

Originally Posted by EnellCH View Post
"Value" is relative to the buyer. I am sure the greeks debated this topic far before carbon bikes existed. You will find as many opinions as you ask people in the cycling world. A great thing is we are all free to choose our poison.
I don't know what philosophical discussion you were referring to. Cycling equipment is not that. Cycling equipment costs to build are minimal. And then the prices are jacked for marketing purposes. That's not a philosophical discussion that can't be resolved with a lifetime of discussion.

You could buy a motorcycle that goes far faster, using more expensive materials, that required more engineering and with a higher cost to manufacturer than a bike for less.

Just think about the costs to build a factory that can manufacturer 14nm computer chip and compare that to a carbon bike that uses a mold, pre-preg cloth and an oven? Bike frame costs way more. I can buy a Intel 4960X for $800 which includes engineering well beyond my understanding, would require years of schooling and training. Whereas with a bike, I could sit down in a few hours and understand what is going on a new carbon bike...

Last edited by zymphad; 07-29-14 at 10:05 AM.
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Old 07-29-14, 10:05 AM
  #136  
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Originally Posted by zymphad View Post
Just going by what is on the website, not by the deal you got from your dealer. Also I said S-Works
Not ah....

Even for your E5 Smartweld, if you can get one. I've asked at all the dealers, they don't have any in stock and said they wouldn't be able to get any for the rest of the year. You got lucky it seems. Which is why I ride a Ebay carbon, otherwise I would have gone with Allez.
It's a popular frame, apparently.
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Old 07-29-14, 10:10 AM
  #137  
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Originally Posted by Bob Dopolina View Post
I look forward to seeing your My2016 products at Eurobike.
You're giving him the benefit of the doubt.
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Old 07-29-14, 10:10 AM
  #138  
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Originally Posted by DrPete View Post
You forgot the detail of economy of scale, and the fact that an S-works bike is not equivalent to a low-end Honda.

What does a high-end Honda that's ready for world-class competition cost? A bit more. Honda to release $1.2 million motorcycle in late 2013
Marianne Vos would've won the UCI CX Worlds on a Huffy, and that's a fact.

The marginal gains between an 800 alloy Btwin with SRAM Apex and a 8000 S-Works with Campy EPS are shockingly low. And Nibali would've won the TdF on either.

People can and should spend their money on anything they want. But the fact is, in bicycling, an additional 1000 only offers you a negligble performance improvement.

But it's all over now, the companies won. It's an equipment sport now, not a participation sport. Cash buys anonymous recognition and credibility. Now, where are my Sidis and Rapha jacket...
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Old 07-29-14, 10:11 AM
  #139  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
How would you know?

(Yes, this is an invite to post pics)
Originally Posted by zymphad View Post
I like his bike too. Despite those rainbow colors, I would gone with the stealth.
The anodized stealth finish is boring. I like shiny paint.

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Old 07-29-14, 10:13 AM
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Geez
What sucker pays $40 for a "shirt"?
I buy long sleeved shirts from Goodwill
$3.50 and my wife-70 yo- gets a "geezer" discount-which is 10-15%
I buy cycling shorts on ebay-
new Carnari-Canary?? $15
T-shirts-name brand with a pocket $7.50 for two at Dollar General

Bikes-ebay Jamis Dragon 15" "old but ok Shimano and other components" for $350 delivered-
a Reynolds 853 steel frame
More of less as "good as it gets" for a steel frame(ignoring Reynolds SS and other zillion dollar steel frames

$150 for a shirt??

A sucker born every minute.
Yeah that is too harsh.In general bike riding is a "good bargain" as hobbies go.
Makes you healthier and you can sell the equipment for a decent price if you buy used.
Try that with a drug hobby or gambling- or even GOLF if you like wimpy sports.

Yeah dollar for "fun health resale pride in ownership of a "pretty machine" value
Bike riding is a BARGAIN as hobbies go.
When I was young-1979-I put together a "pretty bike" Mercian fancy lug frame-"special super light 531"(I was lighter-think they suggested you weigh less than 150)-$400 for frame-Betat NOLA- $600 of high end parts
Loved that bike-worth $1000 1979 dollars to me(maybe $4000 or so 2014 dollars)
Yeah loved that bike-worth all the $$.
In hindsight I should have passed on the dent by squeezing tube set-but I was a weight weenie,so...

$6000 for a bike-a toy-still seems reasonable to me-even just to hang on wall and look at
(assuming it isn't an ugly bike)

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Old 07-29-14, 10:15 AM
  #141  
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Originally Posted by zymphad View Post
You could do the same with a used steel off Craigslist... So I don't buy into your view. Your SRAM Force 22 isn't going to offer any more performance or health benefits over a used Craigslist with Shimano 105.

If I'm basing my purchase on mental/physical wellness, I'd just buy a good pair of running shoes for $50 and run. I'd get fitter and healther running than cycling faster. And overall health better as well since runners tend to have a better overall physical fitness. Upper body, core, even legs and most of all bone health. Cycling being very low impact, cyclist bone density suffers. Pro cyclists break their leg bones often I would think because of that, their bones simply aren't that strong if they aren't doing other high impact training.
A good pair of running shoes cost more than 50 bucks.
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Old 07-29-14, 10:15 AM
  #142  
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Originally Posted by zymphad View Post
That's material attachment. Emotion in sports I don't relate to material possession. That's different. I can have an emotional material attachment to anything like I do with my speakers... I can get the same level of emotional enjoyment out of running with a cheap New Balance as I can with a more expensive Saucony Mirage.



That's no the point of this thread. It's not bashing those who buy expensive bikes. I know from other thread you just spend a boatload on a custom Linskey Ti for example. It's just a discussinon do you think your expensive bike is worth that...

For example do you really think Parlee are worth what they are selling for? They are using pre-made tubes which they cut to length. And they use normal pre-preg unidirectional carbon cloth to "weld" the tubes together. This is not a high skill labor job, a monkey could do this. And they aren't manufacturing or using any special materials. Nor are they using special tools. I've seen their shop, it looks like a garage filled with high school drop-outs who were too busy skate boarding/cycling and skiing.
I don't see many monkeys designing, building, selling, and warrantying Parlees...

Is my expensive bike "worth it?" Let's see. It rides great, looks good, is reasonably light, quite durable, and it's made by a company that I want to support. The price is also quite reasonable, and it fit within the limits of what I want to spend for a bike. Every time I ride it, I enjoy it. So yeah--worth it. And "a boatload" is pretty subjective - I built it myself and shopped around for components so the build came in well under $5K--well below what most high-end bikes cost.

This is the same asinine discussion people have about things like wine, or any other hobby where the enthusiasts sink a bunch of money into it. Do I think a bottle of Petrus is worth $5K? Nope. But it is to somebody, and I'm sure that there are plenty of people who think that the wine I like and buy isn't "worth it" either. Nobody is forcing you to spend $12K on your next bike. In fact, there are some really nice ones out there for a lot cheaper. If the combined objective and subjective attributes of the bike/gloves/bibs/whatever make you happy at the lower price point, have at it. By the same token, if sipping two buck Chuck by the barbecue makes you happy, enjoy the fact that you don't need the fancy stuff to enjoy a glass of wine. One of the things I love about living in WA is that the local wines have incredible bang for the buck, and many bottles you can buy for $50 here are as good to my palate as CA, Aussie, and French wines costing hundreds. It's whatever floats your boat.

In the end, value of anything is a personal decision, and you vote with your wallet. Don't like it? Don't buy it.
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Old 07-29-14, 10:16 AM
  #143  
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Originally Posted by zymphad View Post
Just think about the costs to build a factory that can manufacturer 14nm computer chip and compare that to a carbon bike that uses a mold, pre-preg cloth and an oven? Bike frame costs way more. I can buy a Intel 4960X for $800 which includes engineering well beyond my understanding, would require years of schooling and training. Whereas with a bike, I could sit down in a few hours and understand what is going on a new carbon bike...
Good Lord! You really don't have even the slightest clue about what you are talking about.

Do you think a carbon factory has 1 mold, 1 table and 1 fricken oven! Really? That means they can make about 4 frames, in one size, a day. Yup, that will make you stinkin' rich.

What about the temp/humidity controlled room to store the carbon? What about the cutting room or the layup room and forms or all the other molds you need to have any kind of capacity or the row of bloody ovens you need to bake those frames or the cleaning room or the machins to test/QC the raw frames or the sanding and putty room or the climate controlled paint booths or the offices and the building and the staff and the trucks and the packing materials and the engineers and the testing equipment...?

Stupidly on this scale makes my head explode.
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Old 07-29-14, 10:22 AM
  #144  
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Originally Posted by Campagnono View Post
Marianne Vos would've won the UCI CX Worlds on a Huffy, and that's a fact.

The marginal gains between an 800€ alloy Btwin with SRAM Apex and a 8000€ S-Works with Campy EPS are shockingly low. And Nibali would've won the TdF on either.

People can and should spend their money on anything they want. But the fact is, in bicycling, an additional 1000€ only offers you a negligble performance improvement.

But it's all over now, the companies won. It's an equipment sport now, not a participation sport. Cash buys anonymous recognition and credibility. Now, where are my Sidis and Rapha jacket...
This is true about any sport/hobby/whatever.

Equipment doesn't buy you s**t but equipment. Anyone who thinks they can judge anything from a rider but the amount of disposable income they dedicate to cycling by looking at their bike has his/her own set of issues.

And if you've ever ridden a Huffy on a real trail, you'd know that Vos likely wouldn't have won jack on a Huffy because the bars last about an hour in hard riding, not to mention the plethora of other mechanicals she'd have had. People who earn their living on bikes ride the best stuff because it's the best stuff. Conveniently their sponsors only put them on the best stuff they have.
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Old 07-29-14, 10:23 AM
  #145  
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Originally Posted by Bob Dopolina View Post
Stupidly on this scale makes my head explode.
But I'm comforted by the fact that I can come back after disappearing for almost a year and find the same 4 or 5 basic threads on page 1.
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Old 07-29-14, 10:23 AM
  #146  
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So much exaggeration in this thread.
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Old 07-29-14, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by DrPete View Post
But I'm comforted by the fact that I can come back after disappearing for almost a year and find the same 4 or 5 basic threads on page 1.
"Comfort"? I don't think that word means what you think it means.
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Old 07-29-14, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by RPK79 View Post
So much exaggeration in this thread.
You're exaggerating.
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Old 07-29-14, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Bob Dopolina View Post
"Comfort"? I don't think that word means what you think it means.
There's comfort in consistency, even if it's mind-numbing.
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Old 07-29-14, 10:27 AM
  #150  
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Originally Posted by zymphad View Post
Might want to read the posts I was replying to.
Or not. I saw a couple of them, the basic schtick being that you could make all this stuff for a fraction of the cost super really easily. You'd think that if it was that simple, some company would just come in and start making huge money by only marking things up 500%. Heck, you could do it yourself.

Or perhaps you can't tell good stuff from crap. There's nothing wrong with that -- a guy who can't tell Carlo Rossi from a seriously fine wine is going to be a happy person as will be the person who can't distinguish hotel art from a Monet or a Porsche from a VW. These distinctions are meaningless to people who don't really care about those things.

I have yet to see really cheap bike stuff that I think is well made even if some stuff delivers excellent bang for the buck. BTW, the 105 you referenced in an earlier post is hardly cheap. It is only cheap compared to top shelf systems. The way that diminishing returns work, marginal gains cost more as you work up the scale.

As for the technology example, you can buy electronics produced in very expensive places for stupid low prices. But they sell a lot more units. And there are plenty of crappy electronics where all kinds of corners are cut.

Anyone who doesn't like the price of something is free not to buy. That's what a market is.
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