chil2makefun

Just beacause I have too much time on my hands, I went through the entire thread that Bdop suggested. Here are some of the more interesting ones.

Ebay and Chinese Direct Carbon Wheel Thread 2.0 - Page 140

Ebay and Chinese Direct Carbon Wheel Thread 2.0 - Page 143

Ebay and Chinese Direct Carbon Wheel Thread 2.0 - Page 148

rpenmanparker 

Funny thing is you should be able to approach 1,000 g with an inexpensive, perfectly serviceable pair of aluminum rims if you are talking tubulars. I build 1,270 clinchers out of Kinlin XR-200 rims with no sweat whatsoever. Considering how much weight is saved without compromise of strength just changing the same design rim to a tubular, getting real close to 1,000 g or at most 1,100 shouldn't be hard. Problem is all the makers are moving to wide rims now and the weights have all gone up. It is the carbon thing that is causing the problem here.

Bob Dopolina 

All those links take me to the first page on the thread.

chil2makefun

Hmm they work just fine for me...

Maybe these do the trick.

Ebay and Chinese Direct Carbon Wheel Thread 2.0 - Page 148
Ebay and Chinese Direct Carbon Wheel Thread 2.0 - Page 148
Ebay and Chinese Direct Carbon Wheel Thread 2.0 - Page 148
Ebay and Chinese Direct Carbon Wheel Thread 2.0 - Page 143
Ebay and Chinese Direct Carbon Wheel Thread 2.0 - Page 140


Better?

bt

the op, even after being warned.

wjclint

This to me is actually the much more interesting issue than the "will it asplode" arguments where positions seem to be almost exclusively supported by logical fallacies (e.g. Bdop's your wheel didn't asplode so you are lucky even though I have no frequency of failure information, am lumping every single wheel in China into the same pot, and have no comparative data, is primarily ipse dixit interspersed with several other fallacies in reasoning). Although I think statements like "this is because their producers have a sincere and purposeful lack of decency in wages, training, quality, environmental ethics, regulatory ethics, and this is combined with a mercenary and criminal interest in fakery and illusion and an unfortunately exceptional technological capacity in the ability to do so" are gross oversimplifications, the issue of national trade imbalances and their impact on local economies is an important issue. I mean, really, call ALL of China be described with such a broad brush?

When I read that overly broad simplification about China I looked directly around me: The keyboard I am typing on says "Microsoft" and "Made in China", the Shoretell phone system on my desk says "made in China" on the bottom, the LG screen I am looking at says "Made in China" on the back and also references Korea, the CamelBack Podium bottle in my desk drawer says "Made in China" on the sticker on the bottom, the pen on my desk says "Made in Japan", the fan heater under my desk running because the building thinks I like it in a meat locker says "Made in China" on the bottom, the three ring binder in front of me says "Manufactured in the US -- From US and Foreign components", the Swingline stapler in my desk says "Made in Mexico", a small calculator in my desk says "Made in China". The pads of paper on my desk are about the only thing I can find that say "made in the US".

So if the general idea is we have a trade imbalance that hurts our economy I can't say I disagree, but on the other hand I think "China bad, murica good, me no buy china stuff" is a vast oversimplification if it is an attempt to describe a solution (like my strawman?).

Campagnono

I am French, not American. There are many terrible things wrong with America. For instance, public education, guns, and food portion control.

One great thing about America is that the disposal cost of elemental Mercury at an industrial level is roughly 8-9€/kg. This is incredibly expensive, and this is because America disposes of this waste correctly. In France, we use the same exact disposal process, but because many of the chemical precursors for the disposal/stabilizing reactions are made in America, we pay around 9-10€/kg due to transport costs.

However, Chinese chemical waste firms last year charged an average of 0.65€/kg to dispose of mercury wastes. Why? Is it the oft-referenced "scale" issue? Is it the "highly trained but low wages" issue? No, it's because it costs very little to unload a boat onto some pump trucks who drive four kilometers from the ports and dump it into wet sand carbon pits where it inevitably drains into the local rivers and back into our communal, global ocean.

Your trade argument is one of economics and opportunity cost, and that works well in undergraduate economics courses.

However, in the real world there are ethics, and I love my children. And China treats it's land, people, and consumers unfairly and with minimal regard for ethics.

My company has a dozen Chinese post-docs who can't speak any French apart from hello and goodbye. They are brilliant engineers. And none of them will ever go home. Why would they?

China bad. Developed world good. Me no want buy shoddy China product no more and contribute downfall of western culture. Me no likey.

wjclint

Is that the best solution or even a realistic one to address the problem you have identified? "China bad" -- certainly has bad characteristics. "Developed world good" -- certainly has good characteristics. But I could just as easily say "developed world has bad characteristics" and "China has good characteristics" and it would be equally true. I would say there is some pretty bad, unethical, world damaging **** that happens everywhere. Individuals not buying products from the worst offenders seems like pissing in the ocean to see if you can turn it yellow and outright embargoes or draconian tariffs may arguably make the worst offenders even worser.

I by no means am suggesting I have a solution, but I do think the "individuals shouldn't buy China stuff" solution is more about emotional fulfillment that problem solving.

Bob Dopolina 

That's not what I said and not what I believe.

I said, many times, that there are good producers in China but those vendors are not the ones selling stuff on eBay or Alibabayexpress or the like. Different animals, non? The producers you mention in reference to the stuff around you are on a different level. Chances are there is foreign ownership (most likely Taiwanese - a la Foxcom) or at the very least foreign management (again, most likely Taiwanese).

My post was in reference to the Chinese foam core rims we tested, results we have seen from tests run by others we work with and seconded by a third party who also tested. It's a small sample size, I know, but the failure rate was very, very high.

Regarding the comments made by Campagnolo, I only ask if you have ever been to China? It is a toxic cesspool. The SOP here is that if you go to China on business you always come back sick.

One of my favorite stories is that a giant pool of some kind of foam like substance exploded out of the sewers in one of the large industrial cities. I covers most a city block. No one had any idea of what it was because the military showed up and hosed it back into the sewers before any govt "EPA" scientists could show up and test it. Out of sight...

Last year in Shanghai the bodies of hundreds of dead pigs washed up on the shore of the river that runs through the city. They had died (cause unknown) and the farmer had simply dumped them in the river as it was more convenient for him that disposing of them properly. Oh yes, did I mention it happens TWICE!?

I do agree that painting the entire business community and even an entire nation with a broad brush is an oversimplification but there are just so many bad actors in that ****hole that those who are trustworthy and who produce quality goods get drowned out by the crooks, bribe takers, liers and outright thieves.

This is not just my opinion. Many of my friends own businesses or work in other industries that are based here and in China. When you hear the same stories over and over from everyone you know who has first hand experience there it gets pretty tough to have a balanced opinion.

You are free to buy whatever you like, from whomever you like and I honestly believe that it is an absolute right. We made our choice regarding China based on testing and personal experience as well as a good deal of research. So yes, I am absolutely biased in my opinion. That should be pretty clear, non?

gregf83 

What a sanctimonious pile of drivel. France or the US have never treated anyone unfairly? Give me a break. China may be worse environmentally and have too many people but they are improving. Because they are on a different timeline than your precious country is no reason to ignore them or assume they won't someday be better than France.

Bob Dopolina 

I would disagree that they are improving as would many of the citizens there.

Conditions there and freedoms there are worsening. Domestic terror attacks are increasing. Once their housing bubble burst and their economy contracts there could be some real upheaval.

gregf83 

All part of growing up. The US and many other supposedly enlightened countries treated many of their own citizens despicably not long ago. The self-righteous have short memories...

joejack951

chil2makefun-

Bob Dopolina 

As a history major my memory is pretty good. I am very familiar with industrialization and the labour struggles that occurred since I wrote several research papers on this very subject.

We can also talk about slavery in America and the wholesale slaughter of the indigenous peoples in the Amaercas if you'd like but I don't think what we are seeing in China is exactly this (although the terrorism is certainly ethnicity based as many of those who find themselves under the control of the Han Culture are starting to act against that repression).

Again, if you think China is improving I would disagree. The control on media is getting even tighter. Environmental degradation is becoming even more widespread and locals are getting really pissed about it. The income gap is widening and many are being left behind and have realized that they will never benefit from China's industrialization.

The rising middle class, unlike in every other industrialized nation, have not pushed for more freedom and independence, instead that have clung even more tightly to the Party.

As I said, when the housing bubble bursts there, a bubble like no other ever seen and one that dwarfs the US problems in 2007/2008 well all be in for a bumpy ride and things in China could go bat****.

Bob Dopolina 

Same.

I am using Safari and Firefox.

I also have Chrome and Exporer at work so I'll try them there.

Bob Dopolina 

Just received this update (I am subscribed to the thread).

gregf83 

Wasn't implying you were self-righteous. I suspect if you broaden your timescales a little the picture in China might look a little different. Besides I'm an optimist

gregf83 

Thanks for the detailed explanation. It sounds like it's not the foam core construction per se that's the problem, rather the thin walls that using a foam core allows.

Is it feasible to make a foam core wheel with thicker carbon or would that be less cost effective than using a bladder or other methods?

canam73

Aren't they on a 1000 year plan? I'll bet you a dollar they get'r done in less than 800.

joejack951

The links work fine for me in Internet Explorer and Safari.

BoSoxYacht

you have seen page 143 already, and you commented about it on 143.

Willbird

Well the while "Chinese import" issue to me boils down to a disparity in regulation and responsibility. If am American company decided to make the same wheels they would face a huge slew of regulations and civil liability.

They would and DO face those same hurdles if they decide to import them and sell them.

However Chinese merchants can DIRECT MARKET via Ebay, and sidestep all those pesky regulations and civil and even criminal liability.

The only problem with guns in America is we need more people legally armed walking our streets,


Bill

Bob Dopolina 

Yeah,

That was a direct link from my email. It takes me to that post and that post only.

The links in the thread take me to the start of the thread and it only goes to page 137.

On top of that, when I am on the page, it jumps around everytime the ad on the right changes. I find it really hard to view that site from home.

e_guevara

Saying the foam core construction not being at fault for the failures is not exactly accurate.

The foam core is used as a support structure for the thin wall carbon construction during layup. However the foam absorbs and accumulates heat on repeated braking causing the resin holding the fibers together to melt and weaken the structure. Using thicker walls (more layers) eliminates the need for the foam, therefore eliminating the heating problem caused by the foam. It is the resin that fails, causing loss of structural integrity.

The heating problem could be mitigated by using high temperature resins, but that would add to the cost of the wheel and still not solve the "insulating oven effect" when the temperature gets too high.

Campagnono

Well, in terms of absolute full disclosure, I think France is terrible country, as is the United States. But they are the best we've got among diverse democracies. So this is where your optimism is needed. Let's fix the things which are slightly broken.

However, China is a savage wasteland trifecta of a rapidly expanding middle class, a questionable housing and credit market pegged to the dollar, and a multi-ethnic collective of social unrest and terrorism. The English term for this is "powder keg."

I don't know what timeline you feel is reasonable in terms of China superceding France in any capacity apart from GDP. Using geologic time, I agree with you. When the next dinosaurs come, China may very well be "better" than France.

But if you feel that in your lifetime, that of your children, or that of their children, China will ever compare to France in terms of opportunity, decency, equality, and ethics, there are three things you need to do: go to France, go to China, and open your eyes.