Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Road Cycling
Reload this Page >

thoughts on power (newbie)

Notices
Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

thoughts on power (newbie)

Old 08-11-14, 10:00 PM
  #76  
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: https://t.me/pump_upp
Posts: 168

Bikes: Cannondale CAAD 10, Some POS MTB thats way too small

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by hamster
Over 5%, ideally something like 7%. The problem is that under 5% measurements are still badly affected by aerodynamics and much over 7% many people start running out of gears.
I'll keep that in mind, thanks for the thoughts!
LMaster is offline  
Old 08-11-14, 10:02 PM
  #77  
Senior Member
 
IronHorseRiderX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 134
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by LMaster
What grade do you think is ideal for that?

I guess once I get out and buy a road bike I'll have to do an actual test but so far all I have is a 2x20 @ 304W avg...from a random gym trainer so god knows where that accuracy could be or what "power" is even being measured, and a 4.6M climb @ 12.8mph w/average grade of 3.9%...but on a MTB that weighs 35lbs.

I like the idea of training with a powermeter, especially since I'm a numbers geek...but those price tags are brutal. Even stages at 699-799 is asking a lot for where I am now TT
I got mine (Powertrap G3 on Reynolds 46mm from thecyclinghouse.com @ $900 delivered) about two months ago (early June).
Here's my weekly target segment Strava Segment | Athenian School (South Gate) to summit W/O the piddle paddle in the parking lot at the top!!!
Numbers https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5565/...877fd67d_o.png - the ones without lightning are strava estimated.
I would say strava is right on the spot - within +/- 1%..2% accuracy.
Keep in mind that Powertrap says it's accuracy is +/- 1.5%
This is of course very segment specific, the long and windy ones are probably perfect for that kind of FTP estimation.

Last edited by IronHorseRiderX; 08-11-14 at 10:06 PM.
IronHorseRiderX is offline  
Old 08-11-14, 10:10 PM
  #78  
Senior Member
 
IronHorseRiderX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 134
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by hamster
It's even worse than that.

Per your second link 4 W/kg is about where an average _lean_ person can get realistically. Yes, 300 W at 160 lbs is 4 W/kg. But it does not mean that this guy can get to 300 W. That's because excess weight does not translate into extra wattage. The guy is 5'5", which means that his lean/skinny weight is about 130 lbs, and he can get to 130 * 0.454 * 4 = 236 W with training. For him 300 W is 5.1 W/kg.

Plus, the whole discussion is extremely vague, since he has no measuring equipment and his best estimate of his FTP is "120 to 170 W". That is about as precise as saying "I think I can bench press somewhere between 100 and 200 lbs".
OP has to start somewhere and I would say 4W/kg is a decent start
IronHorseRiderX is offline  
Old 08-11-14, 10:10 PM
  #79  
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: https://t.me/pump_upp
Posts: 168

Bikes: Cannondale CAAD 10, Some POS MTB thats way too small

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Damn, I wouldn't mind being able to climb 5% at 16.2 on 0W

Yea, from looking at numbers on climbs it seems that strava estimates are decent assuming weight of rider/bike is correct in calm conditions. Get some ridiculous numbers of flat ones, or less steep climbs where the wind blows.
LMaster is offline  
Old 08-11-14, 11:18 PM
  #80  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 4,401

Bikes: Bianchi Infinito (Celeste, of course)

Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 754 Post(s)
Liked 104 Times in 77 Posts
Originally Posted by IronHorseRiderX
I got mine (Powertrap G3 on Reynolds 46mm from thecyclinghouse.com @ $900 delivered) about two months ago (early June).
Here's my weekly target segment Strava Segment | Athenian School (South Gate) to summit W/O the piddle paddle in the parking lot at the top!!!
Numbers https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5565/...877fd67d_o.png - the ones without lightning are strava estimated.
I would say strava is right on the spot - within +/- 1%..2% accuracy.
Keep in mind that Powertrap says it's accuracy is +/- 1.5%
This is of course very segment specific, the long and windy ones are probably perfect for that kind of FTP estimation.
Ah, Mt. Diablo the Bay Area power meter.

I'm pretty sure W/kg is based on your real weight, not your "lean" weight. All the cyclists I've known who've lost significant weight have not lost power. So they're producing 200W, and after dropping 20lbs, they're still making 200W, but the W/kg has gone up. By his own math, the op is currently at ~2 W/kg. There's plenty of room to grow.
gsa103 is offline  
Old 08-11-14, 11:31 PM
  #81  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Escondido, CA
Posts: 2,240
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by gsa103
I'm pretty sure W/kg is based on your real weight, not your "lean" weight. All the cyclists I've known who've lost significant weight have not lost power. So they're producing 200W, and after dropping 20lbs, they're still making 200W, but the W/kg has gone up. By his own math, the op is currently at ~2 W/kg. There's plenty of room to grow.
But, conversely, gaining back those 20 lbs would not result in higher wattage. So, your W/kg is maximized when you're lean. So, when someone like Dr Coggan says "the ceiling for an average Joe is 4 W/kg", he means that the ceiling in terms of absolute wattage is 4 x lean weight, not 4 x actual weight.
hamster is offline  
Old 08-12-14, 08:24 AM
  #82  
Senior Member
 
mr_pedro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 645
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 75 Post(s)
Liked 75 Times in 48 Posts
Originally Posted by torque cyclist
despite all that, my heart rate and blood pressure is all normal. I mean, even if my weight drops my output doesn't just increase. my power to weight will, but not output. I plan on losing weight, but also getting into weight lifting, if I can find myself a friend willing to lift with me. probably will slim down to maybe 170.
Actually it might just increase. Fat does not only slow you down because of the weight, fat uses up oxygen as well, oxygen that could be going to your muscles and increase the aerobic capacity.

Also, excess body fat will cause your body to overheat sooner and hurts the ability to go fast for long periods of time.

Last edited by mr_pedro; 08-12-14 at 08:40 AM.
mr_pedro is offline  
Old 08-12-14, 08:33 AM
  #83  
Senior Member
 
mr_pedro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 645
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 75 Post(s)
Liked 75 Times in 48 Posts
Originally Posted by gsa103
Ah, Mt. Diablo the Bay Area power meter.

I'm pretty sure W/kg is based on your real weight, not your "lean" weight. All the cyclists I've known who've lost significant weight have not lost power. So they're producing 200W, and after dropping 20lbs, they're still making 200W, but the W/kg has gone up. By his own math, the op is currently at ~2 W/kg. There's plenty of room to grow.
Depends, to compare performance, especially in climbing, W/kg is about real weight. However when talking about how much room to improve you have it should be about your "lean" weight. Reaching 4 W/kg or higher is only possible if you are lean. With 30% of fat, that is just not going to happen and you will hit a ceiling at a much lower P to m ratio than 4.
mr_pedro is offline  
Old 08-12-14, 10:43 AM
  #84  
Senior Member
 
IronHorseRiderX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 134
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by LMaster
Damn, I wouldn't mind being able to climb 5% at 16.2 on 0W

Yea, from looking at numbers on climbs it seems that strava estimates are decent assuming weight of rider/bike is correct in calm conditions. Get some ridiculous numbers of flat ones, or less steep climbs where the wind blows.
Regarding those top 25 - all May 18, 2013 and May 13, 2014 rides belongs to pro riders from Tour of California 2013 & 2014, all October rides are from annual Diablo Challenge climbs.
Some pro riders stripping power numbers when posting on strava - not sure why, those are not the fastest guys anyway (do not recall seeing strava rides from top 10 of Tour of California).
So when looking at top 25 you can throw away half right away (pro riders & riding in the peloton) and only look at October numbers.
There's many guys in top 50 who are non-pro and still have 300W+ for 165lb+ which tell me that 4W/kg thing is totally doable for OP or some "average person".
I would not consider height as an indicator for cycling "lean weight", you have to consider person's frame size as well.
Perhaps body fat % would be better target.
For example mesomorph with wide bones can be very lean (10% body fat or less) at 5'5" & 160lbs, there will be no practical use for such person to drop weight.
IronHorseRiderX is offline  
Old 08-12-14, 11:02 AM
  #85  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 64
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
so what sort of output are most of you doing over an hour or more?
torque cyclist is offline  
Old 08-12-14, 11:17 AM
  #86  
Senior Member
 
fstshrk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: WA State
Posts: 1,843
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked 5 Times in 3 Posts
Originally Posted by torque cyclist
so what sort of output are most of you doing over an hour or more?
I got 189W normalized power over three hours this Sunday (using powertap g3). 40 miles and 2500 ft of climbing and I was noodling along without much power output during the descents as it was a hot day (93 degree average temp, 102.3 max). On one of the climbs (category 2), I averaged around 280W over 45 minutes basically just enjoying the scenery and not pushing hard.

I am on the heavy side so it takes a lot of power to move me up the hill compared some of my friends that weigh around 140lbs.

But why are you stuck on power output? It is not p*ss*ng contest, just go out there and ride and enjoy yourself. Keep the cadence up and have fun.
fstshrk is offline  
Old 08-12-14, 11:18 AM
  #87  
Senior Member
 
IronHorseRiderX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 134
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by torque cyclist
so what sort of output are most of you doing over an hour or more?
IronHorseRiderX is offline  
Old 08-12-14, 11:20 AM
  #88  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 64
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
not w/kg, but just pure watts
torque cyclist is offline  
Old 08-12-14, 11:29 AM
  #89  
Certifiable Bike "Expert"
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 5,647
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
ride lots
Phantoj is offline  
Old 08-12-14, 11:50 AM
  #90  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 64
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by fstshrk
I got 189W normalized power over three hours this Sunday (using powertap g3). 40 miles and 2500 ft of climbing and I was noodling along without much power output during the descents as it was a hot day (93 degree average temp, 102.3 max). On one of the climbs (category 2), I averaged around 280W over 45 minutes basically just enjoying the scenery and not pushing hard.

I am on the heavy side so it takes a lot of power to move me up the hill compared some of my friends that weigh around 140lbs.

But why are you stuck on power output? It is not p*ss*ng contest, just go out there and ride and enjoy yourself. Keep the cadence up and have fun.
well, I know because of the lifting and such that i'm going to be doing that I will not have the W/kg as others, so i'm trying to maximize the watts I put out.
torque cyclist is offline  
Old 08-12-14, 12:02 PM
  #91  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 4,770
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 630 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 369 Times in 206 Posts
Originally Posted by torque cyclist
well, I know because of the lifting and such that i'm going to be doing that I will not have the W/kg as others, so i'm trying to maximize the watts I put out.
I would recommend outputting at least 250 watts.
Elvo is offline  
Old 08-12-14, 12:35 PM
  #92  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,700
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by torque cyclist
not w/kg, but just pure watts
Me?

5 sec: 1800W
1 min: 850W
5 min: 400W
FT: 300W

At about 200 lbs.

And guess what? As cyclists go, I'm not all that fast. I can sprint OK, but I'm not there for the sprint all that often.

Why? Because W/kg is what's important - raw watts don't matter.
achoo is offline  
Old 08-13-14, 10:55 PM
  #93  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 64
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by achoo
Me?

5 sec: 1800W
1 min: 850W
5 min: 400W
FT: 300W

At about 200 lbs.

And guess what? As cyclists go, I'm not all that fast. I can sprint OK, but I'm not there for the sprint all that often.

Why? Because W/kg is what's important - raw watts don't matter.
at higher speeds though, doesn't aero provide more of a challenge then weight?
torque cyclist is offline  
Old 08-14-14, 12:23 AM
  #94  
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: https://t.me/pump_upp
Posts: 168

Bikes: Cannondale CAAD 10, Some POS MTB thats way too small

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by IronHorseRiderX
Should have a road bike soon and can at least do a decent climb and get some estimates, but so far trainer + est w/MTB, everything seems pretty consistent with current wattage at FTP being around 300. Currently 70kg, but in a few months I should be back lean and in shape for running, which is closer to 60-62kg. Hard to imagine though that after just a few months of more seriously cycling (100+ mpw) and a few months preceding that of just doing some rides to support running fitness I would be near 5 w/kg potential, especially given that I'm at 6500'.
LMaster is offline  
Old 08-14-14, 09:15 AM
  #95  
Senior Member
 
IronHorseRiderX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 134
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
From my personal experience average gym cycle trainer data is junk.
Your MTB efforts should be closer to real (very close in fact) but looking at your strava profile it does not seems like you are anywhere close to 300W.
Also going from 70 to 62 kg is like dropping your body fat from 20% to 10% - unless you tried that before you will be very surprised how difficult is that.
That is assuming you are at 20% (or more) body fat right now - on your strava picture you look pretty fit already.
I went from mid 15% to low 14 over last year (lost about a kilo or so) and seriously doubt I can ever get close to that "ideal" 10%.
If you that serious you can do hydrostatic weighing (around $50 in our area) or dexa scan (~100$) to get your accurate current body fat and start from there.
Try to do proper FTP test first - it is free and fun

Last edited by IronHorseRiderX; 08-14-14 at 09:20 AM.
IronHorseRiderX is offline  
Old 08-14-14, 11:11 AM
  #96  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 64
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
is strava accurate if it's a windy day?
torque cyclist is offline  
Old 08-14-14, 12:16 PM
  #97  
Senior Member
 
fstshrk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: WA State
Posts: 1,843
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked 5 Times in 3 Posts
Originally Posted by torque cyclist
is strava accurate if it's a windy day?
Of course not.
fstshrk is offline  
Old 08-14-14, 12:18 PM
  #98  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,700
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by torque cyclist
at higher speeds though, doesn't aero provide more of a challenge then weight?
Yeah, but you spend more time going slow. Like up a hill, where weight really matters.

Let's say I lose 1 min on a climb up a 10% hill to a good climber. Yeah, I'll go a lot faster than him on the descent. But because we're both going a lot faster, I'll only make up 15 sec of the minute I lost on the climb.

Another thing that's IMO more important than hitting huge anaerobic power numbers is being able to hit decent ones a whole lot of times and recover quickly after doing so.
achoo is offline  
Old 08-14-14, 12:19 PM
  #99  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,700
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by torque cyclist
is strava accurate if it's a windy day?
It's not accurate on a non-windy day.
achoo is offline  
Old 08-14-14, 12:22 PM
  #100  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 64
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
unfortunately it's scheduled to have 12mph winds until Sunday in my area
torque cyclist is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.