thehammerdog

I ask this question. How can one break down and compare the efforts of a short ride with many climbs to a much longer rider sans hills?
Seems that there should be a way to figure out the intensity of an effort to any other given effort. I tend to ride shorter 25 mile rides with many steep climbs some vs. longer flatter rides.
Just wondering.
Thnaks

merlinextraligh

You need a power meter. KJ of work would be one measure. IF (intensity factor) and TSS would be others, more personalized to the individual.

Because the effort for the flat ride varies greatly with speed, you can't really do a comparison, unless you consider how fast you do the flat ride.


For example a 100 mile century done in 7 hours will be a substantially different amount of work than a 100 mile century done in 4 hours (given that the major force to overcome, air resistance is a squared function of speed). Whereas a 50 mile ride with 10,000 vertical feet of climbing is not going to vary nearly as much with pace, because its just about the same amount of work to climb 10,000 feet in 3hours as it is to do it in six, because the power to overcome gravity does not vary with speed.

wphamilton

Just to clarify I think you meant to say that the energy to overcome gravity does not vary with speed, and accidentally wrote "power". The power required varies with vertical speed but the total work is the same.

Strava does something similar with their "Suffer Score". I think it needs a paid account and integrated heart rate monitor.

merlinextraligh

^ thanks for the clarification.

bbbean 

This is what the power meter was invented for.

Drew Eckhardt 

Time. Two hours at a given intensity is the same whether you cover 40 miles on flat ground or 20 miles with 5000 vertical feet up.

Leinster

I did 30 miles with 3,000 vertical feet on Saturday and I thought it took a lot more out of me than 40 flat miles would have. I don't have a power meter, though, so can't be 100% sure. I know I hit over 200bpm at the first summit, though, and would struggle to reach that at any given point on a flat ride.

caloso

This.


[Now prepare for the objections that power meters are expensive, only for racers, and make you a slave to numbers.]

Leinster

Well the first 2 of those are true. I mean, if you're using a power meter to gauge your effort on a social charity century, you really need to either chill a bit and enjoy the view some more, or sack up and get a racing license.

The 3rd is only as true as the rider himself wants it to be, obviously.

banerjek

"At a given intensity" being the key phrase. 20 miles with 5K feet is going to be way more intense than cruising at 20mph for two hours on the flats unless you're talking about a gradual 5K climb rather than a ride that ends where it starts.

Steep hills can require a level of intensity that you wouldn't want to use on flats for the simple reason that you'll burn your muscles out prematurely.

bbbean 

Some people are very serious about their charity rides. If a power meter (or anything else, including the bike itself) helps you enjoy cycling more and you can afford it, then go for it! There's a reason baskin Robbins makes 31 flavors!

FWIW, my power meter and HRM get a lot of credit for helping me maintain my goal weight. They've also made me a better racer, but they'd be worth the price of admission even if I was still just riding for fitness and weight maintenence.

BB

Dean V

Time x average heart rate for the ride will give you an approximate indication. You could even break it down into time spent in various HR zones and then apply some fiddle factors to get more accurate.
This is how it was done before power meters and although not as accurate I am sure it would be good enough for your purposes.
Could also "listen to your body" a bit to determine how much work you have done. Don't need a computer to tell you if you are knackered or not.

bbbean 

Take it from someone who owns a body, an HRM, and a PM. A PM is more accurate than an HRM, and a HRM is more accurate that your body. Maybe everyone doesn't "need" that level of accuracy, but if you'd like to have it, you really can't trust your legs. They think an easy ride on a day you feel bad is more of an effort than hammering it on a day you feel great.

bikerjp

In my experience, HR x time or time spent in zones is an okay approximation. I know I have a higher average HR on rides where I worked harder (duh) but my perception isn't always that accurate. In other words, I sometimes feel I worked harder than normal but the HR data didn't seem to support that.

Below are two rides for comparison. One was a 55 mile ride with a big climb, the other a 30 mile flat ride. Both had nearly the same average HR. On the 30 mile ride my effort was fairly consistent throughout. On the climb ride I obviously worked harder on the climb but less on the return. The TSS was a little more than double on the longer, hilly ride as was the time and work as measured by a PM. While only two data points, I think you can look at avg HR and time to give you an approximation. Add in a PM for a more accurate measure.

Garmin Connect
Garmin Connect

caloso

+1

Conversely, as you get fitter, on those days you feel good, you'll be putting out more effort than perceived.

Dean V

I do not doubt this but is it possible that it would be sometimes better for you to of taken an easy day when you felt bad rather than just trying to crank out the numbers regardless?

bbbean 

One's choice of training regimen is a seperate issue from how one measures that training. Also, as caloso points out, there are days that you are cranking out more energy than you realized. If one of those days should have been an easy day for whatever reason, a PM would let you know.

BB

thehammerdog

. The power required varies with vertical speed but the total work is the same.

Strava does something similar with their "Suffer Score". I think it needs a paid account and integrated heart rate monitor.[/QUOTE]

I have strava and I even paid for the upgrade. suffer score I have not figured out how it works. It seems that a power meter is the answer to my question but until I find a pile of $$ I will need to rely on strava I guess. I was just trying to figure out the value in a 25 mile hilly climbfest vs. 30 miles of rolling fast TT type of a ride.
Thanks

IronHorseRiderX

PM will certainly help as strava estimations imho are way off on flat & downhill segments.
But even with PM you may have hard time figuring out "25 mile hilly climbfest vs. 30 miles of rolling fast" as your power on climbs may not directly translate to power you can generate on the flats.
That said easiest way to estimate is to ride that 30mi segment - with or without PM it such ride will give you much better answer.
It is also free

caloso

Around here it's usually pretty windy in the spring and the power output to maintain a steady speed into a headwind v. with a tailwind is significant. Like a factor of 2 if the wind is heavy enough. Strava doesn't know what the wind is or whether you're sitting in the middle of a big group.