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legitimate discussion of paying retail at LBS vs. mail order discount

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legitimate discussion of paying retail at LBS vs. mail order discount

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Old 04-01-05, 02:50 PM
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legitimate discussion of paying retail at LBS vs. mail order discount

There is a current thread in cyclocross that prompted me to do some thinking about this. The point was that some of us would feel shame in buying a bike online and then taking it to the LBS to be worked on.

I don't see what is wrong with purchasing labor only at a shop if you pay them fair market value for that labor? With all respect to my friends who own and are employed at them, what do we owe the LBS? I once went into a LBS and asked the owner to price match an item that he was selling for 80% more than I could source it for online. He yelled at me and told me I was the cause of the disappearance of the IBD. I did not take it personally, but I had absolutely no guilt in buying the item online. I tried to give him my business and he acted like a baffoon. He chose to insist on a price that was no longer supportable in that market. I could demand better wages, but if I do not have market power, I will simply be out of a job. Today, his shop does not exist but most still do. I argue that the market will support vendors who are dymanic and willing to adjust business practices to changing market conditions.

In my opinion, LBSs have really had to clean up their act in terms of pricing and mail order companies must maintain decent service as a result of both models being in the market place. I think that is a good thing. Many of us going to put up with a cocky "racers rule" attitude and a "screw you" price when we can order the part online, go to park tools online to learn how to install it, and do it ourselves at a significant savings. Great service, on the other hand, will compell me to spend a little more at either location, but not much more. Because I do most of my own wrenching, price IS the point in my case, and I don't feel bad about that.

The company I work for rakes its vendors over the coals to get the best deal, that is the American way of doing business at every level except the retail level (where we gladly bend over and take it as a result of our pride). I just don't see why it is shameful to expect the best price regardless of the source when it comes to the retail end of the market. Suggested retail price is nothing but a guess at what the retail market will pay for an item; it has nothing to do with the true cost of that item.

Sorry for rambling, but I think that we should feel no guilt in doing legitimate business in legitimate ways. Bike shops would not offer labor for sale if they did not think it would be profitable to work on bikes they did not sell themselves. I know this opens up discussion pertaining to the business practices of the "Blue Devil".. (wallmart), but price competition is the one of the two ways prices are maintained at a reasonable level. The only other way I see is when the vendors simply ask so much that the item can be forgone or substituted with less loss in utility than paying the asking price.
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Old 04-01-05, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Sawtooth
There is a current thread in cyclocross that prompted me to do some thinking about this. The point was that some of us would feel shame in buying a bike online and then taking it to the LBS to be worked on.

I don't see what is wrong with purchasing labor only at a shop if you pay them fair market value for that labor? With all respect to my friends who own and are employed at them, what do we owe the LBS? I once went into a LBS and asked the owner to price match an item that he was selling for 80% more than I could source it for online. He yelled at me and told me I was the cause of the disappearance of the IBD. I did not take it personally, but I had absolutely no guilt in buying the item online. I tried to give him my business and he acted like a baffoon. He chose to insist on a price that was no longer supportable in that market. I could demand better wages, but if I do not have market power, I will simply be out of a job. Today, his shop does not exist but most still do. I argue that the market will support vendors who are dymanic and willing to adjust business practices to changing market conditions.

In my opinion, LBSs have really had to clean up their act in terms of pricing and mail order companies must maintain decent service as a result of both models being in the market place. I think that is a good thing. Many of us going to put up with a cocky "racers rule" attitude and a "screw you" price when we can order the part online, go to park tools online to learn how to install it, and do it ourselves at a significant savings. Great service, on the other hand, will compell me to spend a little more at either location, but not much more. Because I do most of my own wrenching, price IS the point in my case, and I don't feel bad about that.

The company I work for rakes its vendors over the coals to get the best deal, that is the American way of doing business at every level except the retail level (where we gladly bend over and take it as a result of our pride). I just don't see why it is shameful to expect the best price regardless of the source when it comes to the retail end of the market. Suggested retail price is nothing but a guess at what the retail market will pay for an item; it has nothing to do with the true cost of that item.

Sorry for rambling, but I think that we should feel no guilt in doing legitimate business in legitimate ways. Bike shops would not offer labor for sale if they did not think it would be profitable to work on bikes they did not sell themselves. I know this opens up discussion pertaining to the business practices of the "Blue Devil".. (wallmart), but price competition is the one of the two ways prices are maintained at a reasonable level. The only other way I see is when the vendors simply ask so much that the item can be forgone or substituted with less loss in utility than paying the asking price.

Quoting so people can read it better.

I guess it depends on the LBS. Luckily, the ones I go to aren't as anal.
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Old 04-01-05, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Sawtooth
The company I work for rakes its vendors over the coals to get the best deal, that is the American way of doing business at every level except the retail level (where we gladly bend over and take it as a result of our pride). I just don't see why it is shameful to expect the best price regardless of the source when it comes to the retail end of the market. Suggested retail price is nothing but a guess at what the retail market will pay for an item; it has nothing to do with the true cost of that item.
Goods in America are dirt cheap in comparison to the rest of the world. The buying power of the average American is termendous. Just because you can't get *everything* you want doesn't mean that you are paying too much for what you buy. There will always be things out of ones' given price range.

Think about how much you make an hour compared to how much a bike part costs compared to how long it will last. Parts in America are a good deal no matter where you buy them.
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Old 04-01-05, 03:00 PM
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If you pay the LBS overhead I'm sure he'll price match for you. I really hope you need an LBS someday, and when you can't find one, you can go get service from your mail order/order-entry personel. I hope more Companies jump on the shimano, chris king bandwagon. And refuse to sell their stuff to mail order/on-line companies.
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Old 04-01-05, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by midgie
If you pay the LBS overhead I'm sure he'll price match for you. I really hope you need an LBS someday, and when you can't find one, you can go get service from your mail order/order-entry personel. I hope more Companies jump on the shimano, chris king bandwagon. And refuse to sell their stuff to mail order/on-line companies.
Isn't that kind of assuming that most of america can't work on their own bike?... If so, you are probably right. But don't be blinded by that "the customer is better served" bullcrap. I have had great service from mail orders and LBSs alike. Getting the only available service from a LBS simply because a parts manufacturer refuses to allow you do deal with someone else is not my idea of "better service".

Sometimes I do need an LBS and when I do, I am willing to pay for their services . Interestingly, it is most often only when I am forced to use them to get customer service out of a company that insists on keeping them as the sole distribution channel/customer contact that I need them at all. I have good relationships with some of them but loyalty only goes so far. When it becomes evident that I am being taken advantage of, I go elsewhere, pure and simple. In business, "loyalty" usually is synonomous with "not reactive to price adjustments". That is a recipe for being taken advantage of.

This debate is mostly about the protection of turf...and that is fine in America, but let's call a spade a spade.
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Old 04-01-05, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Sawtooth

Sometimes I do need an LBS and when I do, I am willing to pay for their services . Interestingly, it is most often only when I am forced to use them to get customer service out of a company that insists on keeping them as the sole distribution channel/customer contact that I need them at all. I have good relationships with some of them but loyalty only goes so far. When it becomes evident that I am being taken advantage of, I go elsewhere, pure and simple. In business, "loyalty" usually is synonomous with "not reactive to price adjustments". That is a recipe for being taken advantage of.

This debate is mostly about the protection of turf...and that is fine in America, but let's call a spade a spade.
How are you being taken advantage of? By paying a fair retail price? I just don't see it.
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Old 04-01-05, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by jlin453
Quoting so people can read it better.

I guess it depends on the LBS. Luckily, the ones I go to aren't as anal.

ummm no difference with the quoting, sorry
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Old 04-01-05, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Ziemas
How are you being taken advantage of? By paying a fair retail price? I just don't see it.
Which retail price is fair, the LBS or the mail order? The market can only have one "fair value" for any given location and set of circumstances. Mail order has successfully tapped markets that used to be geographically bound to local pricing structures...So which price is the "fair" price now? Do you see what I am saying?

For instance, in Boise, car dealers can sell 4X4s for thousands more than they can in surrounding areas because of increased demand. That is fine and well in accordance with the rules of capitalism. But should I really be expected to feel shame and internal angst if I am willing to drive 6 hours to Salt Lake to buy mine for thousands less?
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Old 04-01-05, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Ziemas
Goods in America are dirt cheap in comparison to the rest of the world. The buying power of the average American is termendous. Just because you can't get *everything* you want doesn't mean that you are paying too much for what you buy. There will always be things out of ones' given price range.

Think about how much you make an hour compared to how much a bike part costs compared to how long it will last. Parts in America are a good deal no matter where you buy them.
I agree Ziemas. We are incredibly wealthy and, in my opinion, blessed in America. I sometimes feel a lot of angst over the fact that I ride not one but two valuable bikes, just one of which would be out of financial reach of most of the worlds population. But I think that is a whole other debate altogether.
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Old 04-01-05, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Sawtooth
Which retail price is fair, the LBS or the mail order? The market can only have one "fair value" for any given location and set of circumstances. Mail order has successfully tapped markets that used to be geographically bound to local pricing structures...So which price is the "fair" price now? Do you see what I am saying?

For instance, in Boise, car dealers can sell 4X4s for thousands more than they can in surrounding areas because of increased demand. That is fine and well in accordance with the rules of capitalism. But should I really be expected to feel shame and internal angst if I am willing to drive 6 hours to Salt Lake to buy mine for thousands less?
So what you're saying is... it's okay to send customer support jobs to India?

What you're talking about is marketing and economics -- which I went to school for and love to discuss -- and is not specific to cycling.

As for prices differences, that's where some companies spend so much time building a brand and offering added value. Any product or service that's outside the scope of being a homogenous commodity will have price differences from other similar goods and fluctuations within itself... sometimes unexplanable to the average consumer.
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Old 04-01-05, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Sawtooth
Which retail price is fair, the LBS or the mail order? The market can only have one "fair value" for any given location and set of circumstances. Mail order has successfully tapped markets that used to be geographically bound to local pricing structures...So which price is the "fair" price now? Do you see what I am saying?

For instance, in Boise, car dealers can sell 4X4s for thousands more than they can in surrounding areas because of increased demand. That is fine and well in accordance with the rules of capitalism. But should I really be expected to feel shame and internal angst if I am willing to drive 6 hours to Salt Lake to buy mine for thousands less?
Do you believe in buying American made products or do you just want something at the cheapest price possible?
Where does your money go when you buy from an LBS? Where does your money go when you buy from a mail order catalog? Supporting local businesses has a knock on effect for the whole community.

If you don't care for the economic health of your community (or your country in the bigger scope of things) then by all means save 10 or 15% on your next purchase. The effects won't be seen for at least another 5 to 10 years. If you can afford a Giant TCR 0 you can by all means afford to support your local economy.
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Old 04-01-05, 03:39 PM
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If you can make all your buying decisions without going to see the product in the local shop I don't have any problems with buying over the web or mail order.

If you use the LBS to try a product on, look at it, go for a test ride, etc then I believe you owe the LBS the margin on it charges. It costs the shop a lot of money to have inventory, a retail space, labor, utilities etc. If you use the LBS for its resources and then buy online I believe that is unfair to the LBS.
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Old 04-01-05, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by LordOpie
So what you're saying is... it's okay to send customer support jobs to India?

What you're talking about is marketing and economics -- which I went to school for and love to discuss -- and is not specific to cycling.

As for prices differences, that's where some companies spend so much time building a brand and offering added value. Any product or service that's outside the scope of being a homogenous commodity will have price differences from other similar goods and fluctuations within itself... sometimes unexplanable to the average consumer.
I think this is very relevant to cycling. I have been dealing with this question for years. It comes up every single time I need to buy something from inner tubes to a new ride.

Regarding jobs in India: If you truly went to school in economics you must be familiar with Fisher's theory, which argues that global trading actually serves to enlarge the pie for everyone; albeit at the expense of a few who are not able to be dynamic in the market. Personally, I believe overall wealth is increased by global trading, but on a local level the ethical question is not to be ignored. That is why I posted.

I totally agree with you on the branding...and those shops who truly offer a service that stands out deservedly reap the benefits thereof. But I believe that many do not and offer ho-hum service. The products themselves are a commodity as a group, as they are available elsewhere with the same characteristics.
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Old 04-01-05, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Chef23
If you can make all your buying decisions without going to see the product in the local shop I don't have any problems with buying over the web or mail order.

If you use the LBS to try a product on, look at it, go for a test ride, etc then I believe you owe the LBS the margin on it charges. It costs the shop a lot of money to have inventory, a retail space, labor, utilities etc. If you use the LBS for its resources and then buy online I believe that is unfair to the LBS.

Yup, I agree. Although I believe most of us have done it.
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Old 04-01-05, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Sawtooth
I once went into a LBS and asked the owner to price match an item that he was selling for 80% more than I could source it for online. I argue that the market will support vendors who are dymanic and willing to adjust business practices to changing market conditions.
In my opinion, LBSs have really had to clean up their act in terms of pricing and mail order companies must maintain decent service as a result of both models being in the market place.
I just don't see why it is shameful to expect the best price regardless of the source when it comes to the retail end of the market.
So what was the part at 80% less online? Unless it was a tube, I'll pretty much guarantee you were asking the owner to sell you an item at a significant loss. Perhaps with that in mind you could understand his reluctance to do so.

So how do you propose the LBS become one of those dynamic businesses? If you can devise business practices that allow you to continually sell items for less than you paid for them while remaining profitable, I'd suggest that you need to act on that. Do you really believe the LBS wants to be non-competitive on pricing in a market where customers increasingly choose on price alone? People also like to complain about the unskilled employees at the LBS; while we're becoming price-competetive, why not remedy that problem as well? Oh wait, you have to compensate good employees well...and let's not forget the difference in overhead.

LBS have really had to clean up their acts? I certainly hope you are not trying to insinuate that LBS in general were gouging the consumer. Charging manufacturer's suggested retail is in no way unethical. I, and I would imagine the other LBS employees on this board, deeply resent any such implication. The proliferation of mail order houses has so distorted the consumers' perception of retail that it brings about statements such as yours. Plus, there's the whole issue of manufacturer's blowing out last year's product to mail order houses. Grey market and OEM components are a big favorite of mine as well. Never mind that we can't even get these items, much less similar items at anything resembling a similar cost.

You don't understand why it is shameful to expect the best price regardless of the source. I believe that is because you do not understand the economics working against your LBS that thus make it impossible for us to match prices on so many items. It's certainly true that there are many in our business that do not belong; almost 300 shops went out of business last year alone. I don't mind seeing the bad shops go; the rest are what concerns me.

Hopefully you do not construe anything I've said as personal; I'm just trying to explain our side of the story. I'd also like to remind those of you of the activities many LBS and their employees participate in to help our sport-from race and ride sponsorship and support, to trail building and advocacy issues.

I eagerly anticipate the flaming to come from those that will call me a liar, tell me it's my fault I can't lose money consistently on sales and remain profitable, etc. The LBS hatred seems to be increasing on here and is particularly strong on these boards relative to other cycling boards on the outernet.

[Edited for spelling/typos...enjoy any others that may still be present.]
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Old 04-01-05, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Sawtooth
Isn't that kind of assuming that most of america can't work on their own bike?... If so, you are probably right. But don't be blinded by that "the customer is better served" bullcrap. I have had great service from mail orders and LBSs alike. Getting the only available service from a LBS simply because a parts manufacturer refuses to allow you do deal with someone else is not my idea of "better service".

Sometimes I do need an LBS and when I do, I am willing to pay for their services . Interestingly, it is most often only when I am forced to use them to get customer service out of a company that insists on keeping them as the sole distribution channel/customer contact that I need them at all. I have good relationships with some of them but loyalty only goes so far. When it becomes evident that I am being taken advantage of, I go elsewhere, pure and simple. In business, "loyalty" usually is synonomous with "not reactive to price adjustments". That is a recipe for being taken advantage of.

This debate is mostly about the protection of turf...and that is fine in America, but let's call a spade a spade.



I think its funny when everyone b!tches about the morons at their LBS. Well if you find a shop with a mechanic worth his weight, odds are hes not making minimum wage. To keep a great mechanic, you have to pay him what hes worth. Otherwise you get the morons we hear so much about. The over head they have is alot more than mail-order companies. Mail-order is an office with phones and computers, and an order entry person who usually can't tell you what works with what, if its not on the list in front of them. And odds are,they are making minimum wage.
So get your stuff through the mail, just don't b!tch when you can't find a LBS or a decent mechanic.
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Old 04-01-05, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Sawtooth
Regarding jobs in India: If you truly went to school in economics you must be familiar with Fisher's theory, which argues that global trading actually serves to enlarge the pie for everyone; albeit at the expense of a few who are not able to be dynamic in the market. Personally, I believe overall wealth is increased by global trading, but on a local level the ethical question is not to be ignored. That is why I posted.
I agree about globalization and am quite willing to reduce my standard of living to balance the world. I'm considered "poor" where I live, so I can't support the mom and pop shops. And even tho I'm "poor", I've got far more luxuries than many people on the planet.

The problem with discussing globalization is the emotions of the average person. While I'm more of a Keynesian, I very much respect Greg Mankiw and while I agree with him about globalization, he's got his head stuck in the sand and has no clue how to market his ideas. Making a speech on behalf of the PotUS saying it's okay to send jobs overseas was idiotic. It's gonna take years for the idea of the benefits to sink in.

I mean, look at Ziemas, he's from Latvia...
Originally Posted by Ziemas
Do you believe in buying American made products or do you just want something at the cheapest price possible?
He's so into supporting local economy that his position -- in a way -- harms his country. America can afford to reduce our standard of living and yet, you'll get opposition to the idea from overseas.

okay, gotta get back to work
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Old 04-01-05, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by LordOpie

I mean, look at Ziemas, he's from Latvia...

He's so into supporting local economy that his position -- in a way -- harms his country. America can afford to reduce our standard of living and yet, you'll get opposition to the idea from overseas.
I'm an ex-pat from a rustbelt factory city. I've seen the damage done.
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Old 04-01-05, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Waldo
So what was the part at 80% less online? Unless it was a tube, I'll pretty much guarantee you were asking the owner to sell you an item at a significant loss. Perhaps with that in mind you could understand his reluctance to do so.

So how do you propose the LBS become one of those dynamic businesses? If you can devise business practices that allow you to continually sell items for less than you paid for them while remaining profitable, I'd suggest that you need to act on that. Do you really believe the LBS wants to be non-competitive on pricing in a market where customers increasingly choose on price alone? People also like to complain about the unskilled employees at the LBS; while we're becoming price-competetive, why not remedy that problem as well? Oh wait, you have to compensate good employees well...and let's not forget the difference in overhead.

LBS have really had to clean up their acts? I certainly hope you are not trying to insinuate that LBS in general were gouging the consumer. Charging manufacturer's suggested retail is in no way unethical. I, and I would imagine the other LBS employees on this board, deeply resent any such implication. The proliferation of mail order houses has so distorted the consumers' perception of retail that it brings about statements such as yours. Plus, there's the whole issue of manufacturer's blowing out last year's product to mail order houses. Grey market and OEM components are a big favorite of fine as well. Never mind that we can't even get these items, much less similar items at anything resembling a similar cost.

You don't understand why it is shameful to expect the best price regardless of the source. I believe that is because you do not understand the economics working against your LBS that thus make it impossible for us to match prices on so many items. It's certainly true that there are many in our business that do not belong; almost 300 shops went out of business last year alone. I don't mind seeing the bad shops go; the rest are what concerns me.

Hopefully you do not construe anything I've said as personal; I'm just trying to explain our side of the story. I'd also like to remind those of you of the activities many LBS and their employees participate in to help our sport-from race and ride sponsorship and support, to trail building and advocacy issues.

I eagerly anticipate the flaming to come from those that will call me a liar, tell me it's my fault I can't lose money consistently on sales and remain profitable, etc. The LBS hatred seems to be increasing on here and is particularly strong on these boards relative to other cycling boards on the outernet.

Your arguments make sense. The item in question was a repair stand, and I don't know his cost. To tell you the truth, I never went back because of the way he dealt with the question. I believe there is room in this market for both models. As I have indicated, I have good relationships with a couple LBSs. I use them when I need them and they profit accordingly. But, I don't believe I would be an educated and reactive consumer if I did not squeek about being forced to use them by manufacturers. That practice is within the rules as well, but so is my trying to get around that.

We used to take advantage of the favorable exchange rate to buy Black Diamond and other American made climbing gear mail order out of Canada. After a while, the manufacturers nixed this by threatening to not service that company if it continued. So we found other markets for a while. My question is, even taking into account the exchange rate, this clearly indicates that there is a different margin for the two markets and that Black Diamond was trying to protect the more favorable margin. In some industries, like healthcare, I believe this is necessary as poor markets could probably not fund the research necessary for bringing forth miracle drugs. But in sports equipment, the question is more profit driven than it is by ethics. If a company can effectivly shut down leakage from its market of favorable margin, more power to them. I am just saying that I should not feel guilt or shame over trying to gain access to the market of lower margin. That is how fortunes are made and lost.
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Old 04-01-05, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Sawtooth
Your arguments make sense. The item in question was a repair stand, and I don't know his cost. To tell you the truth, I never went back because of the way he dealt with the question. I believe there is room in this market for both models.

I am just saying that I should not feel guilt or shame over trying to gain access to the market of lower margin. That is how fortunes are made and lost.
If you don't mind my asking, what model of repair stand and how much did you pay? He certainly didn't handle it well; berating a customer is not the most solid of plans. I think there is room for both models; I wish we weren't getting screwed by manufacturers (and occasionally distributors) on one hand and having consumers accusing us of screwing them as well.

I don't advocate feeling shame for making purchases online (heck, I've sometimes gotten better deals mail-order), I'm just trying to ensure that people understand what's truly going on and don't level false accusations.
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Old 04-01-05, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by midgie
If you pay the LBS overhead I'm sure he'll price match for you. I really hope you need an LBS someday, and when you can't find one, you can go get service from your mail order/order-entry personel. I hope more Companies jump on the shimano, chris king bandwagon. And refuse to sell their stuff to mail order/on-line companies.
what are you talking about? ...i''ve bought both chris king and shimano stuff online???
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Old 04-01-05, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by LordOpie
I agree about globalization and am quite willing to reduce my standard of living to balance the world. I'm considered "poor" where I live, so I can't support the mom and pop shops. And even tho I'm "poor", I've got far more luxuries than many people on the planet.

The problem with discussing globalization is the emotions of the average person. While I'm more of a Keynesian, I very much respect Greg Mankiw and while I agree with him about globalization, he's got his head stuck in the sand and has no clue how to market his ideas. Making a speech on behalf of the PotUS saying it's okay to send jobs overseas was idiotic. It's gonna take years for the idea of the benefits to sink in.

I mean, look at Ziemas, he's from Latvia...

He's so into supporting local economy that his position -- in a way -- harms his country. America can afford to reduce our standard of living and yet, you'll get opposition to the idea from overseas.

okay, gotta get back to work
True that! When I was in graduate school I hear a similar speech from the VP of international ops. at Motorolla. He made in interesting reference to the automobile industry's struggle to accept automation in U.S. manufacturing. He said that because of the pain at the local level we neglected to make that critical move until we had lost 20% of the market to Japan that we have yet to gain back. He further argued that in the long run, that decision was worse for the average U.S. auto worker as automation made manufacturing so much cheaper that the demand for cars worldwide increased dramatically. This goes back to the Fisher argument.

I will admit, although I have studied this stuff intensly, and have watched my dad and neighbors loose their farms to the results of globalized farming operations, I know only enough to make myself dangerous. So I am genuinly interested in the opinions of others here on this topic.
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Old 04-01-05, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by doctorSpoc
what are you talking about? ...i''ve bought both chris king and shimano stuff online???
Shimano and King are two of the forerunners when it comes to trying to prevent their product from being devalued while leveling the playing field.
I was quite amused by the amount of flack Shimano took for this action, actually.
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Old 04-01-05, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Waldo
If you don't mind my asking, what model of repair stand and how much did you pay? He certainly didn't handle it well; berating a customer is not the most solid of plans. I think there is room for both models; I wish we weren't getting screwed by manufacturers (and occasionally distributors) on one hand and having consumers accusing us of screwing them as well.

I don't advocate feeling shame for making purchases online (heck, I've sometimes gotten better deals mail-order), I'm just trying to ensure that people understand what's truly going on and don't level false accusations.
Perhaps I unintentionally generalized too much. I don't mean to say that every item at every shop is overpriced. Further, I understand the expenses of overhead. The fact that shops get screwed boils back down to market power as well. That is why I was thrilled to see Sram come out with its line a few years back. We need more of that kind of innovation. It is good ecomonically as well as for the product innovation. I am a big supporter of free market economies with certain restraints.

It was a park stand and it was probably 1996 so I can't recall the exact prices, but I believe we were asking him to come down from $180 to $100. I can see now that is a lot to ask for, but why couldn't he meet us halfway? Is it because he was afraid of opening that door. We really don't live in a "dickering" society.
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Old 04-01-05, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by doctorSpoc
what are you talking about? ...i''ve bought both chris king and shimano stuff online???
I'll have to notify chris king and shimano then.

I just looked and they are offering it a msrp. so thats okay.
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