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Originally Posted by halfspeed
(Post 17305337)
The Roubaix isn't a race bike, it's a geriatric fred bike. Boonen's Roubaix is not the same thing.
Plus, racing on gravel is a thing. THIS is a geriatric fred bike: :fred: Schwinn catalogs, 1971 - 1980 (23 of 579) :50: |
Originally Posted by halfspeed
(Post 17308145)
There's nothing wrong with riding a grampa bike, but there are plenty of us for whom a more aggressive geometry is more suitable. My flexibility is above average.
I pass guys all the time on slammed bikes. I find it hilarious watching a middle aged guys like you on a geometry suitable for a racer. The biggest misconception on the web is that a more slammed position is faster. The opposite is true many times if not an elite rider. But walter mitty types like you want to be a top rider and seek a more aggressive position for vanity versus speed. |
This thread has devolved into hair-splitting about the various ways big manufacturers are trying to address what some call the "all roads" category. The Diverge is Specialized's latest stab at that category. If you plotted "all roads", "cyclecross", "monster cross", and "gravel bike" as circles on a map, they would mostly overlap. I could elaborate on what I think the differences are but, unless you have very specific and specialized needs, those differences are pretty slight.
Instead, I want to point out that the OP isn't asking for a bike in any of these categories. He's asking for what I call a "Colorado century" bike, and what the industry calls an "endurance road" model. I rode a half dozen Colorado centuries this year and several things were noteworthy about them: Most had a lot of climbing: 5000-10,000 feet. Most had stretches with a lot of wind. Many had long segments where there was one lane each way and little or no shoulder. There were screaming descents at 40+ mph. There were long grinds up linked switchbacks with too little oxygen. There were pacelines, if you could hang on, and solitary slogs when you couldn't. There was rain, sleet, and hail. There was lots of chip-and-sealed blacktop, but only 20 miles of dirt/gravel. I built a bike for doing this kind of ride, and here's what I think is important. 1. It needs to fit really well, and not fold you into a shape that you can't sustain for 5-7 hours. 2. It needs to mute road buzz, but still be stiff and light enough to climb well. 3. It needs to have stable steering so you can descend in a crosswind or sit up and eat, and be stable with a seat pack big enough to hold warmers, gloves and a Goretex jacket. 4. You will want low gears. Don't spec it by what you need on a hilly training ride; spec it by what you'll need topping the continental divide into a headwind after five hours in the saddle. 5. You may want wider tires than you think. At 160 lbs, I mostly ride 25 mm tires, but I like being able to fit 28 mm when the occasion or season calls for it. 6. Everything on the bike, from drivetrain, to brakes, to wheels must be highly reliable and easily serviced by a harried event mechanic. 7. After too many scary descents and even a few blown tires, I switched to disc brakes and I will never, ever, go back. But choose carefully: see item 6. 8. Four ounces spent on good lighting could save your life. I recommend a bright, AA-powered rear blinker (longer run time) plus some kind of small flashing front light for descents. I have seen lots of people riding these Colorado events on Domain's and Rubaix's. Both have appropriate geometry, but only if they fit you. Get a professional fitting before you buy anything. Also, the available components may not match up with your size and weight. Can you get low enough gearing? I found that once I entered my 50's I needed lower gearing than was available in some gruppos. What about the wheelset? Is it appropriate for someone your size? Is it still fun to ride? I rode factory bikes for decades. But I got older and less flexible at the same time that I was doing more and more miles. Eventually, a custom-made frame started to make a lot sense for me. The overall bike wasn't any more expensive than a high-end Trek or Specialized -- I simply allocated the funds differently. I spec'd Ultegra instead of DuraAce, spec'd alloy instead of carbon fiber cockpit components, and allocated $2k for wheels instead of $3k. Then I applied the money I'd "saved" towards a custom-fitted frameset from Seven. A carbon fiber factory bike might have been a bit lighter, but it wouldn't have fit as well. Now, when I finish a century or metric double, I'm tired but I don't hurt. Give it some thought. |
Originally Posted by halfspeed
(Post 17305337)
The Roubaix isn't a race bike, it's a geriatric fred bike.
|
For the OP, how much non-pavement riding are you planning on doing? Did you decide on your bike testing lineup because they are billed as endurance bikes or because you will be going off regular pavement (I consider asphalt, cement, chipseal regular)?
I only ask because the guy I ride with is about your size and cannot wait to unload his Domane. His complaint is that the seatpost/top tube junction flexes too much (by design) and, he feels, slows him down climbing. He is selling the Domane in favor of a Specialized Tarmac, but also rode several other "race" road bikes and preferred all of them to the Domane. If you will be riding different types of surfaces, by all means ignore my advice. However, if it is going to be mostly pavement, including not good pavement (we have plenty of that here), I would include bikes such as the Emonda, Tarmac, SuperSix, etc in your testing. Bikes can be setup to be plenty comfortable on long rides if you are fitted correctly. |
Originally Posted by Campag4life
(Post 17308440)
And you are probably turd slow..lol.
I pass guys all the time on slammed bikes. I find it hilarious watching a middle aged guys like you on a geometry suitable for a racer. The biggest misconception on the web is that a more slammed position is faster. The opposite is true many times if not an elite rider. But walter mitty types like you want to be a top rider and seek a more aggressive position for vanity versus speed. Oh, and FWIW, my "performance" (such as it is) on the bike is no secret as I've linked several ride maps on the 41, some with power data. If you're into e-pissing contests, have fun. |
Originally Posted by revchuck
(Post 17308538)
Troll.
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Originally Posted by halfspeed
(Post 17308668)
Are you racing on a Roubaix?
|
Originally Posted by revchuck
(Post 17308704)
I came really close to doing that, until I was told by multiple sources that they suck in crits. I already suck at crits, so don't need any more suckitude in that context. :) I'd use one in a road race in a heartbeat, though. I'm eminently qualified in the geriatric vein - I race M60+. Currently waiting on a Tarmac Pro Race.
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Damn, that was good. Nice work, good advice.
Originally Posted by LateSleeper
(Post 17308473)
This thread has devolved into hair-splitting about the various ways big manufacturers are trying to address what some call the "all roads" category. The Diverge is Specialized's latest stab at that category. If you plotted "all roads", "cyclecross", "monster cross", and "gravel bike" as circles on a map, they would mostly overlap. I could elaborate on what I think the differences are but, unless you have very specific and specialized needs, those differences are pretty slight.
Instead, I want to point out that the OP isn't asking for a bike in any of these categories. He's asking for what I call a "Colorado century" bike, and what the industry calls an "endurance road" model. I rode a half dozen Colorado centuries this year and several things were noteworthy about them: Most had a lot of climbing: 5000-10,000 feet. Most had stretches with a lot of wind. Many had long segments where there was one lane each way and little or no shoulder. There were screaming descents at 40+ mph. There were long grinds up linked switchbacks with too little oxygen. There were pacelines, if you could hang on, and solitary slogs when you couldn't. There was rain, sleet, and hail. There was lots of chip-and-sealed blacktop, but only 20 miles of dirt/gravel. I built a bike for doing this kind of ride, and here's what I think is important. 1. It needs to fit really well, and not fold you into a shape that you can't sustain for 5-7 hours. 2. It needs to mute road buzz, but still be stiff and light enough to climb well. 3. It needs to have stable steering so you can descend in a crosswind or sit up and eat, and be stable with a seat pack big enough to hold warmers, gloves and a Goretex jacket. 4. You will want low gears. Don't spec it by what you need on a hilly training ride; spec it by what you'll need topping the continental divide into a headwind after five hours in the saddle. 5. You may want wider tires than you think. At 160 lbs, I mostly ride 25 mm tires, but I like being able to fit 28 mm when the occasion or season calls for it. 6. Everything on the bike, from drivetrain, to brakes, to wheels must be highly reliable and easily serviced by a harried event mechanic. 7. After too many scary descents and even a few blown tires, I switched to disc brakes and I will never, ever, go back. But choose carefully: see item 6. 8. Four ounces spent on good lighting could save your life. I recommend a bright, AA-powered rear blinker (longer run time) plus some kind of small flashing front light for descents. I have seen lots of people riding these Colorado events on Domain's and Rubaix's. Both have appropriate geometry, but only if they fit you. Get a professional fitting before you buy anything. Also, the available components may not match up with your size and weight. Can you get low enough gearing? I found that once I entered my 50's I needed lower gearing than was available in some gruppos. What about the wheelset? Is it appropriate for someone your size? Is it still fun to ride? I rode factory bikes for decades. But I got older and less flexible at the same time that I was doing more and more miles. Eventually, a custom-made frame started to make a lot sense for me. The overall bike wasn't any more expensive than a high-end Trek or Specialized -- I simply allocated the funds differently. I spec'd Ultegra instead of DuraAce, spec'd alloy instead of carbon fiber cockpit components, and allocated $2k for wheels instead of $3k. Then I applied the money I'd "saved" towards a custom-fitted frameset from Seven. A carbon fiber factory bike might have been a bit lighter, but it wouldn't have fit as well. Now, when I finish a century or metric double, I'm tired but I don't hurt. Give it some thought. |
Originally Posted by halfspeed
(Post 17308668)
Are you racing on a Roubaix?
Below is my friend's Roubaix. I mentioned he is a CAT 2. If you want we can arrange a race between you on your slammed bike with your flexible body and him on his 'geriatric' bike. Bring a lot of money because the bet will be high. Also, if your interested in winning your money back, I have a girlfriend that also rides a Roubaix. I will also bet a lot of money on her that she will drop you in a 80 mile race. With my windfall, I will simply build another bike and will be for a good cause. :) http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/l...oubaixAndy.jpg |
Originally Posted by LateSleeper
(Post 17308473)
This thread has devolved into hair-splitting about the various ways big manufacturers are trying to address what some call the "all roads" category. The Diverge is Specialized's latest stab at that category. If you plotted "all roads", "cyclecross", "monster cross", and "gravel bike" as circles on a map, they would mostly overlap. I could elaborate on what I think the differences are but, unless you have very specific and specialized needs, those differences are pretty slight.
Instead, I want to point out that the OP isn't asking for a bike in any of these categories. He's asking for what I call a "Colorado century" bike, and what the industry calls an "endurance road" model. I rode a half dozen Colorado centuries this year and several things were noteworthy about them: Most had a lot of climbing: 5000-10,000 feet. Most had stretches with a lot of wind. Many had long segments where there was one lane each way and little or no shoulder. There were screaming descents at 40+ mph. There were long grinds up linked switchbacks with too little oxygen. There were pacelines, if you could hang on, and solitary slogs when you couldn't. There was rain, sleet, and hail. There was lots of chip-and-sealed blacktop, but only 20 miles of dirt/gravel. I built a bike for doing this kind of ride, and here's what I think is important. 1. It needs to fit really well, and not fold you into a shape that you can't sustain for 5-7 hours. 2. It needs to mute road buzz, but still be stiff and light enough to climb well. 3. It needs to have stable steering so you can descend in a crosswind or sit up and eat, and be stable with a seat pack big enough to hold warmers, gloves and a Goretex jacket. 4. You will want low gears. Don't spec it by what you need on a hilly training ride; spec it by what you'll need topping the continental divide into a headwind after five hours in the saddle. 5. You may want wider tires than you think. At 160 lbs, I mostly ride 25 mm tires, but I like being able to fit 28 mm when the occasion or season calls for it. 6. Everything on the bike, from drivetrain, to brakes, to wheels must be highly reliable and easily serviced by a harried event mechanic. 7. After too many scary descents and even a few blown tires, I switched to disc brakes and I will never, ever, go back. But choose carefully: see item 6. 8. Four ounces spent on good lighting could save your life. I recommend a bright, AA-powered rear blinker (longer run time) plus some kind of small flashing front light for descents. I have seen lots of people riding these Colorado events on Domain's and Rubaix's. Both have appropriate geometry, but only if they fit you. Get a professional fitting before you buy anything. Also, the available components may not match up with your size and weight. Can you get low enough gearing? I found that once I entered my 50's I needed lower gearing than was available in some gruppos. What about the wheelset? Is it appropriate for someone your size? Is it still fun to ride? I rode factory bikes for decades. But I got older and less flexible at the same time that I was doing more and more miles. Eventually, a custom-made frame started to make a lot sense for me. The overall bike wasn't any more expensive than a high-end Trek or Specialized -- I simply allocated the funds differently. I spec'd Ultegra instead of DuraAce, spec'd alloy instead of carbon fiber cockpit components, and allocated $2k for wheels instead of $3k. Then I applied the money I'd "saved" towards a custom-fitted frameset from Seven. A carbon fiber factory bike might have been a bit lighter, but it wouldn't have fit as well. Now, when I finish a century or metric double, I'm tired but I don't hurt. Give it some thought. PS: Btw, a girlfriend I ride with has a Seven and a high end Orbea with deep carbon wheels. She likes them both. She also rides VERY slammed...almost no head tube...back is always flat to the ground. I ride with another girl who rides a Roubaix. She is always in the drops but she doesn't ride near as aero as the girl on the Seven. The girl who rides the Roubaix...she rides 300 miles a week....can drop the other girl easily...they know one another....and the girl with the Seven is a very strong recreational rider. All the meatheads (halfspeed) on here that believe an endurance geometry bike has a single thing to do with how fast a given rider is or can be just doesn't understand the sport in the least. For less than elite riders, the opposite is true. Unless blessed with world class flexibility, a rider will be faster on an endurance frame. The vast majority don't get this. |
Originally Posted by Campag4life
(Post 17309200)
No but we can arrange a race if you like.
Below is my friend's Roubaix. I mentioned he is a CAT 2. If you want we can arrange a race between you on your slammed bike with your flexible body and him on his 'geriatric' bike. Bring a lot of money because the bet will be high. Also, if your interested in winning your money back, I have a girlfriend that also rides a Roubaix. I will also bet a lot of money on her that she will drop you in a 80 mile race. With my windfall, I will simply build another bike and will be for a good cause. :) |
Originally Posted by LateSleeper
(Post 17308473)
This thread has devolved into hair-splitting about the various ways big manufacturers are trying to address what some call the "all roads" category. The Diverge is Specialized's latest stab at that category. If you plotted "all roads", "cyclecross", "monster cross", and "gravel bike" as circles on a map, they would mostly overlap. I could elaborate on what I think the differences are but, unless you have very specific and specialized needs, those differences are pretty slight.
Instead, I want to point out that the OP isn't asking for a bike in any of these categories. He's asking for what I call a "Colorado century" bike, and what the industry calls an "endurance road" model. I rode a half dozen Colorado centuries this year and several things were noteworthy about them: Most had a lot of climbing: 5000-10,000 feet. Most had stretches with a lot of wind. Many had long segments where there was one lane each way and little or no shoulder. There were screaming descents at 40+ mph. There were long grinds up linked switchbacks with too little oxygen. There were pacelines, if you could hang on, and solitary slogs when you couldn't. There was rain, sleet, and hail. There was lots of chip-and-sealed blacktop, but only 20 miles of dirt/gravel. I built a bike for doing this kind of ride, and here's what I think is important. 1. It needs to fit really well, and not fold you into a shape that you can't sustain for 5-7 hours. 2. It needs to mute road buzz, but still be stiff and light enough to climb well. 3. It needs to have stable steering so you can descend in a crosswind or sit up and eat, and be stable with a seat pack big enough to hold warmers, gloves and a Goretex jacket. 4. You will want low gears. Don't spec it by what you need on a hilly training ride; spec it by what you'll need topping the continental divide into a headwind after five hours in the saddle. 5. You may want wider tires than you think. At 160 lbs, I mostly ride 25 mm tires, but I like being able to fit 28 mm when the occasion or season calls for it. 6. Everything on the bike, from drivetrain, to brakes, to wheels must be highly reliable and easily serviced by a harried event mechanic. 7. After too many scary descents and even a few blown tires, I switched to disc brakes and I will never, ever, go back. But choose carefully: see item 6. 8. Four ounces spent on good lighting could save your life. I recommend a bright, AA-powered rear blinker (longer run time) plus some kind of small flashing front light for descents. I have seen lots of people riding these Colorado events on Domain's and Rubaix's. Both have appropriate geometry, but only if they fit you. Get a professional fitting before you buy anything. Also, the available components may not match up with your size and weight. Can you get low enough gearing? I found that once I entered my 50's I needed lower gearing than was available in some gruppos. What about the wheelset? Is it appropriate for someone your size? Is it still fun to ride? I rode factory bikes for decades. But I got older and less flexible at the same time that I was doing more and more miles. Eventually, a custom-made frame started to make a lot sense for me. The overall bike wasn't any more expensive than a high-end Trek or Specialized -- I simply allocated the funds differently. I spec'd Ultegra instead of DuraAce, spec'd alloy instead of carbon fiber cockpit components, and allocated $2k for wheels instead of $3k. Then I applied the money I'd "saved" towards a custom-fitted frameset from Seven. A carbon fiber factory bike might have been a bit lighter, but it wouldn't have fit as well. Now, when I finish a century or metric double, I'm tired but I don't hurt. Give it some thought. |
Originally Posted by halfspeed
(Post 17309665)
So what will you be doing while I "race" your "friend" and your "girlfriend", gramps? Cowering in the corner somewhere?
You already said I was too old to race anyway. That doesn't prove the merit of the Roubaix. I will leave the laurels of the great Roubaix in the hands of a more capable rider who will easily drop you...lol. All while you are nice and slammed, slow and tucked in for the night. The girl I want you to race is of no particular pedigree. I just believe she can drop you. She will leave you like a red headed step child at mile 50. This will be a chance to get your money back but all you will do is break even at best. Btw, she is 50 years old...and pretty hot. :) |
Originally Posted by Campag4life
(Post 17309704)
Nah...I will be on my cell talking to my financial planner investing the money I won/stole from you.
You already said I was too old to race anyway. That doesn't prove the merit of the Roubaix. I will leave the laurels of the great Roubaix in the hands of a more capable rider who will easily drop you...lol. All while you are nice and slammed, slow and tucked in for the night. The girl I want you to race is of no particular pedigree. I just believe she can drop you. She will leave you like a red headed step child at mile 50. This will be a chance to get your money back but all you will do is break even at best. Btw, she is 50 years old...and pretty hot. :) http://www.bikes2udirect.com/bikes_h...tems/B2618.jpg |
Originally Posted by halfspeed
(Post 17309722)
Nonsense! If @revchuck can race, you can race! You like to talk about how fast you are but you hide behind your girlfriend when you want to challenge someone who goes by the user name of "halfspeed". Lulz. Perhaps that grampa bike is still too aggressive for you. Here's something more appropriate:
http://www.bikes2udirect.com/bikes_h...tems/B2618.jpg Come on down to FL and we will race. Let me know if you plan a vacation. Btw, I am fast for my age. :-) But my buddy who is a bit younger is faster and he would represent the Roubaix better and prove how silly all your posts in this thread are. He will make you look old and crippled on your slammed 'racing' bike. |
Originally Posted by Campag4life
(Post 17309725)
I just finished my ride today. By contrast, you are likely ice fishing right?...lol.
Come on down to FL and we will race. Let me know if you plan a vacation. Btw, I am fast for my age. :-) But my buddy who is a bit younger is faster and he would represent the Roubaix better and prove how silly all your posts in this thread are. He will make you look old and crippled on your slammed 'racing' bike. |
Originally Posted by Campag4life
(Post 17309202)
All the meatheads (halfspeed) on here that believe an endurance geometry bike has a single thing to do with how fast a given rider is or can be just doesn't understand the sport in the least. For less than elite riders, the opposite is true. Unless blessed with world class flexibility, a rider will be faster on an endurance frame. The vast majority don't get this.
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1 Attachment(s)
Originally Posted by Campag4life
(Post 17309202)
Maybe you could post a pic of your Seven. What is the stack/reach of your bike? I would be surprised if the riding position couldn't be replicated on a stock factory endurance bike like a Roubaix or Domane. I just don't see the performance of a Ti bike matching a Roubaix. I have owned both. Not in weight, lateral stiffness or vertical compliance or handling. But a Seven is a nice bike for sure.
Hmm, not sure I know the reach, but the virtual top tube length is 57.8, seat tube 52 (it's a sloping TT), head tube 22, chain stay 42, angles 73/73. It's true that you can change things on a production bike... after I built this one, I changed two other bikes to have the same touch points. They definitely fit me better now, but each bike still feels totally different. One thing I didn't make clear about the Seven is that I didn't know what geometry I wanted going in --I only knew a few things that didn't work. Rather than saying "this is what I want", I told Neil Doshi "this is what I do". He decided what to build based on my interview and measurements. Of course I did specify that I wanted disc brakes and a triple crank. How to make those two things go together was a puzzle that I solved only after a lot of research. Anyway, here's a picture of the bike. http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=417952 |
Originally Posted by halfspeed
(Post 17310412)
I am demonstrably faster on a TT setup in an aero position than I am on a standard road bike even though I produce less power on the TT bike. Aero matters.
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Originally Posted by Dunbar
(Post 17311157)
If you have an existing bike to use as a reference it's not hard to determine if you can duplicate that position on another bike by comparing stack and reach. IMO most people exaggerate the relevance of the ~2cm of stack difference between the Tarmac and Roubaix when it comes to fit. If I ran a -17 degree slammed stem I could probably get 10cm of drop on my Roubaix (if I wanted to.)
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Odd seeing a campag 4 life fan and a campag user with campag shifter as his avatar arguing.
But I'll have to side with halfspeed here. Aside from improving his doping regiment, Lemonde's use of aero bars and his improved position on the bike is probably the single biggest change in road racing in past 25 years. That alone proves aero position on the bike makes a huge difference. And it's logical, if the human body accounts for 85% of aero issues, if fitness was equal, positioning on the bike would be the single biggest improvement for speed and performance. For the rest of us who don't have the power and ability in which aero positioning is not an issue (too slow), then I'd agree comfort would matter more. But if you have the flexibility and the ability and you have reached a level in which you're seeking every advantage, slamming the stem, and getting into aero would be the most logical thing to do, at least to me. |
Originally Posted by halfspeed
(Post 17311191)
The operative statement in bold.
So you are a slow guy on a TT bike making ridiculous assertions about the Roubaix. So here we go. Come to FL. See my buddies Roubaix above? Here is the bet. 10 mile race. You on your "TT bike" now...forget your wonderfully slammed road bike...and him on his Roubaix. That should sway the balance of all your aero BS. He will either ride in the drops or put an aero bar on his Roubaix. I will even let you pick which set up. It won't change the outcome. Bring your check book. Its gonna cost you more than you can afford. You should really find another thread to troll on. Maybe join forces with timtak as you have about the same mentality. |
Originally Posted by LateSleeper
(Post 17311021)
,
Hmm, not sure I know the reach, but the virtual top tube length is 57.8, seat tube 52 (it's a sloping TT), head tube 22, chain stay 42, angles 73/73. It's true that you can change things on a production bike... after I built this one, I changed two other bikes to have the same touch points. They definitely fit me better now, but each bike still feels totally different. One thing I didn't make clear about the Seven is that I didn't know what geometry I wanted going in --I only knew a few things that didn't work. Rather than saying "this is what I want", I told Neil Doshi "this is what I do". He decided what to build based on my interview and measurements. Of course I did specify that I wanted disc brakes and a triple crank. How to make those two things go together was a puzzle that I solved only after a lot of research. Anyway, here's a picture of the bike. http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=417952 I have a pretty calibrated eye and your fit could be duplicated on either a 56 or 58 Roubaix which is also available in disk. Doesn't matter though as you like your Seven which btw is a pretty bike but I would have built with Campy. :) If you are perfectly comfortable I would say your Seven consultant did a very nice job on getting the geometry right...good stem length and proper amount of spacers...good saddle position etc. Your handlebar height is close to your saddle height which is very comfortable for a vast group of riders and makes the drops more comfortable which no doubt you use a lot of the time. Moving forward, if you do want to buy another bike or frame as a companion for your Seven and you don't know your stack and reach of your Seven to duplicate the fit, you can calculate it to replicate the position you have. I posted how to do this if you care to crunch the numbers. |
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