Lack of Reflectors an Issue?
09-17-14, 09:36 AM
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Lack of Reflectors an Issue?
I tried to search and found nothing specific to this... I ride with a bevy of lights on while on the road, HID and blinky up front, two bright blinky/steady lights to the rear. I know I'm plenty visible, but to make room for those lights, I took the stock reflectors off the bars and seatpost. My pedals are clipless, so they don't have the old school reflectors either.
So, if I get hit by a car at any point, I know that in actual fact I'm far more visible than someone with a reflector on the front and rear, but am I legally not considered to be compliant, and do I then lose my right to a claim from Disability insurance, or from the driver because I'm missing an ineffective (but legally mandated) piece of equipment? If I have to put a cursory DOT reflector on to ensure that I'm legally covered, I'll do it, but it would be a hassle, and I'd rather not... anyone with some familiarity with the legal framework here?
So, if I get hit by a car at any point, I know that in actual fact I'm far more visible than someone with a reflector on the front and rear, but am I legally not considered to be compliant, and do I then lose my right to a claim from Disability insurance, or from the driver because I'm missing an ineffective (but legally mandated) piece of equipment? If I have to put a cursory DOT reflector on to ensure that I'm legally covered, I'll do it, but it would be a hassle, and I'd rather not... anyone with some familiarity with the legal framework here?
09-17-14, 09:59 AM
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I'm not a lawyer but I can't imagine a cop or judge being so obtuse. If you're covered in lights I think common sense dictates that you count as being "visible," and well within the spirit of any reflector requiring law.
Of course when lawyers get involved, common sense gets checked at the door.
OT: BTW I have a 2004 T-800. Love it!
Of course when lawyers get involved, common sense gets checked at the door.
OT: BTW I have a 2004 T-800. Love it!
09-17-14, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Agent Cooper
OT: BTW I have a 2004 T-800. Love it!
09-17-14, 10:27 AM
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You've got lights and blinkies that are more visible than simple reflectors. I think you are over-worrying the issue.
09-17-14, 10:33 AM
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Reflective Tape on the back of your shoes shows off very good.
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Last edited by 10 Wheels; 09-17-14 at 10:36 AM.
09-17-14, 10:56 AM
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I've asked myself the same question. While one would hope common sense would prevail, I'm a bit skeptical about the human race's ability to use logic and reason at times.
My solution to this problem. I slap a piece of white reflective tape on my head tube (or similar place) where a reflector would be mounted, and a piece of red reflective tape somewhere on the back of the bike where the rear reflector would be mounted.
My solution to this problem. I slap a piece of white reflective tape on my head tube (or similar place) where a reflector would be mounted, and a piece of red reflective tape somewhere on the back of the bike where the rear reflector would be mounted.
09-17-14, 11:01 AM
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Chiefly, if I get seriously injured, am I going to have a kind, caring executive from my life insurance company (holders of my accidental death and dismemberment policy) that I'm not going to collect, even though I'm paralyzed, because I wasn't using legally mandated reflectors. I know that a sane human being would know that that was a stupid perspective, but someone who was trying to find a technical reason to avoid paying me out (that, or the liability insurance of a driver that did the hitting) would perhaps find that an EXCEEDINGLY interesting argument to waste a good deal of time on.
09-17-14, 11:07 AM
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NY only requires reflectors if you ride between 1/2 hour after sunset, or 1/2 hr before sunrise. Riding in daylight hours, there is no legal requirement to have reflectors. The only legal requirement I know of other than that is if you are a commercial enterprise selling a bicycle, it must have a yellow or white front wheel reflector, a red or white rear wheel reflector, and one stationary red rear.
09-17-14, 11:17 AM
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Insurance.
Insurance companies increase profit by lowering pay-outs. Do you really want to give some insurance adjuster an excuse to disallow a claim, or reduce the pay-out?
Ever seen the kind of place insurance companies put up to house their headquarters? And manpower is way expensive. Ever notice how many people work there for a wage something more than minimum? There is a lot of profit to be had in insurance, and it don't come from being excessively generous.
Insurance companies increase profit by lowering pay-outs. Do you really want to give some insurance adjuster an excuse to disallow a claim, or reduce the pay-out?
Ever seen the kind of place insurance companies put up to house their headquarters? And manpower is way expensive. Ever notice how many people work there for a wage something more than minimum? There is a lot of profit to be had in insurance, and it don't come from being excessively generous.
09-17-14, 11:23 AM
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I've gotten a second set of wheels that I use for on-road shenanigans, swapped out the crank (weird asymmetry) and the shifters (tiagra right shifter pooped out on me), but otherwise it's been a great bike... it's my everything-but-the-beater bike, and has done yeoman's work... I think mine's around the same year as yours, perhaps... close enough, at least. Shame they don't make them any longer, and I was also glad to wind up with one of the ones they made with STIs, as much as bar-ends have their advantages, I love the convenience of brifters.
**Apologies for getting off topic***
09-17-14, 11:33 AM
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Would you rather have your lawyer saying "Well, no, Mr. Schlatte was NOT in compliance with the law, but he did have all these lights." or "Mr. Schlatte was not only in compliance with the law, he ALSO had all these lights."
One's an argument that you're special and the law doesn't apply to YOU, the other is an argument that you went above and beyond what the law requires. Which one do you think is going to go over better?
Just get a light that's also a reflector.
09-17-14, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by achoo
If local law requires reflectors - it requires REFLECTORS.
Would you rather have your lawyer saying "Well, no, Mr. Schlatte was NOT in compliance with the law, but he did have all these lights." or "Mr. Schlatte was not only in compliance with the law, he ALSO had all these lights."
Would you rather have your lawyer saying "Well, no, Mr. Schlatte was NOT in compliance with the law, but he did have all these lights." or "Mr. Schlatte was not only in compliance with the law, he ALSO had all these lights."
Small consequence of the fashion of removing reflectors all over the place.
Are they required on wheels (white) as well as on the front and rear (white/red)?
Now, I just need to figure out where I put the damned reflectors when I took them off... obviously I AM riding between a half hour after sunset and a half hour before sunrise, otherwise I wouldn't bother with the maniacal array of lights... I'm careful, not utterly paste-eatingly insane
Bummer.
UPDATE: talked to the local PD, they confirmed that while reflectors are required on NEW bicycles, they aren't required any longer if you have effective lighting, and are suitably replaced by the same. Thank god
Last edited by superslomo; 09-17-14 at 01:20 PM. Reason: UPDATE!
09-17-14, 01:16 PM
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09-17-14, 01:16 PM
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If local law requires reflectors - it requires REFLECTORS.
Would you rather have your lawyer saying "Well, no, Mr. Schlatte was NOT in compliance with the law, but he did have all these lights." or "Mr. Schlatte was not only in compliance with the law, he ALSO had all these lights."
One's an argument that you're special and the law doesn't apply to YOU, the other is an argument that you went above and beyond what the law requires. Which one do you think is going to go over better?
Just get a light that's also a reflector.
Would you rather have your lawyer saying "Well, no, Mr. Schlatte was NOT in compliance with the law, but he did have all these lights." or "Mr. Schlatte was not only in compliance with the law, he ALSO had all these lights."
One's an argument that you're special and the law doesn't apply to YOU, the other is an argument that you went above and beyond what the law requires. Which one do you think is going to go over better?
Just get a light that's also a reflector.
winning answer ^^^
09-17-14, 01:23 PM
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Are they required on wheels (white) as well as on the front and rear (white/red)?
Now, I just need to figure out where I put the damned reflectors when I took them off... obviously I AM riding between a half hour after sunset and a half hour before sunrise, otherwise I wouldn't bother with the maniacal array of lights... I'm careful, not utterly paste-eatingly insane
Bummer.
UPDATE: talked to the local PD, they confirmed that while reflectors are required on NEW bicycles, they aren't required any longer if you have effective lighting, and are suitably replaced by the same. Thank god
Now, I just need to figure out where I put the damned reflectors when I took them off... obviously I AM riding between a half hour after sunset and a half hour before sunrise, otherwise I wouldn't bother with the maniacal array of lights... I'm careful, not utterly paste-eatingly insane
Bummer.
UPDATE: talked to the local PD, they confirmed that while reflectors are required on NEW bicycles, they aren't required any longer if you have effective lighting, and are suitably replaced by the same. Thank god
09-17-14, 01:27 PM
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If you read the law, it very specifically tells you exactly what you need. I do not recall wheel reflectors as a part of it, but it gives specific instructions for the red rear reflector. I also believe that a reflective light will not satisfy, as the law makes separate light and reflector fairly clear, at least as I recall.
A bicycle must be equipped with:
A brake which is capable of making the bike tires skid on dry level pavement.
A bell, horn or other device that can be heard at least a hundred feet away. Sirens and whistles are not permitted.
Bicycles driven between a half-hour after sunset and a half-hour before sunrise must be equipped with a white front headlight visible in darkness for at least 500 feet, and a red or amber taillight visible for at least 300 feet.
A bicycle, when purchased new and/or driven at night, must have reflective tires, or wide-angle, spoke-mounted reflectors. Reflectors must be colorless or amber for front wheels, and colorless or red for rear wheels.
A brake which is capable of making the bike tires skid on dry level pavement.
A bell, horn or other device that can be heard at least a hundred feet away. Sirens and whistles are not permitted.
Bicycles driven between a half-hour after sunset and a half-hour before sunrise must be equipped with a white front headlight visible in darkness for at least 500 feet, and a red or amber taillight visible for at least 300 feet.
A bicycle, when purchased new and/or driven at night, must have reflective tires, or wide-angle, spoke-mounted reflectors. Reflectors must be colorless or amber for front wheels, and colorless or red for rear wheels.
09-17-14, 01:30 PM
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If you read the law, it very specifically tells you exactly what you need. I do not recall wheel reflectors as a part of it, but it gives specific instructions for the red rear reflector. I also believe that a reflective light will not satisfy, as the law makes separate light and reflector fairly clear, at least as I recall.
All Reflective
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09-17-14, 01:38 PM
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Rear reflector check box for bicycle is on the PA State Police accident investigation form.
Under the Pedalcycles section: Passenger ?| Helmet? | Headlights? | Rear Reflectors?
They are quite effective but none of my bikes have them anymore. I do run a head and tail light.
Under the Pedalcycles section: Passenger ?| Helmet? | Headlights? | Rear Reflectors?
They are quite effective but none of my bikes have them anymore. I do run a head and tail light.
09-17-14, 01:45 PM
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Bicycle and Wheel Sport Safety Index and Overview
I had to check with MN law - fortunately, lights (of a specific visibility or greater) satisfy the reflector requirements here.
I had to check with MN law - fortunately, lights (of a specific visibility or greater) satisfy the reflector requirements here.
09-17-14, 02:05 PM
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Interesting... in Ontario the time requirement is from a half hour before sunset to a half hour after sunrise... I guess dusk and dawn are safer in NY and MN.
09-17-14, 02:07 PM
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While driving, I find the rear reflector on bicycles I pass to be completely, absurdly ineffective. Part of my indifference to keeping it on wasn't fashion but just function... a $10 blinkie will be visible on the back of a bike a long way off, while the reflector make be visible RIGHT before the impact. I'm seeing the NYS code, but it's slightly unclear, and could include a bit of a loophole:
Wait. What??
I'm not trying to get into some big A&S discussion, but I know that I see loads of road cyclists with the reflectors removed, akin to the ceremonial removal of the dork disc, it's part of the stylistic bris that happens when you don bib shorts... but if there's a token reflector that ensures that we are all covered legally in the event of an accident, that would be a good bit of knowledge to be armed with.
So, any of you smart folks know what the bare minimum is that I can get away with?
§ 1236. Lamps and other equipment on bicycles. (a) Every bicycle when
in use during the period from one-half hour after sunset to one-half
hour before sunrise shall be equipped with a lamp on the front which
shall emit a white light visible during hours of darkness from a
distance of at least five hundred feet to the front and with a red or
amber light visible to the rear for three hundred feet. Effective July
first, nineteen hundred seventy-six, at least one of these lights shall
be visible for two hundred feet from each side.
(b) No person shall operate a bicycle unless it is equipped with a
bell or other device capable of giving a signal audible for a distance
of at least one hundred feet, except that a bicycle shall not be
equipped with nor shall any person use upon a bicycle any siren or
whistle.
(c) Every bicycle shall be equipped with a brake which will enable the
operator to make the braked wheels skid on dry, level, clean pavement.
(d) Every new bicycle shall be equipped with reflective tires or,
alternately, a reflex reflector mounted on the spokes of each wheel,
said tires and reflectors to be of types approved by the commissioner.
The reflex reflector mounted on the front wheel shall be colorless or
amber, and the reflex reflector mounted on the rear wheel shall be
colorless or red.
(e) Every bicycle when in use during the period from one-half hour
after sunset to one-half hour before sunrise shall be equipped with
reflective devices or material meeting the standards established by
rules and regulations promulgated by the commissioner; provided,
however, that such standards shall not be inconsistent with or otherwise
conflict with the requirements of subdivisions (a) and (d) of this
section.
in use during the period from one-half hour after sunset to one-half
hour before sunrise shall be equipped with a lamp on the front which
shall emit a white light visible during hours of darkness from a
distance of at least five hundred feet to the front and with a red or
amber light visible to the rear for three hundred feet. Effective July
first, nineteen hundred seventy-six, at least one of these lights shall
be visible for two hundred feet from each side.
(b) No person shall operate a bicycle unless it is equipped with a
bell or other device capable of giving a signal audible for a distance
of at least one hundred feet, except that a bicycle shall not be
equipped with nor shall any person use upon a bicycle any siren or
whistle.
(c) Every bicycle shall be equipped with a brake which will enable the
operator to make the braked wheels skid on dry, level, clean pavement.
(d) Every new bicycle shall be equipped with reflective tires or,
alternately, a reflex reflector mounted on the spokes of each wheel,
said tires and reflectors to be of types approved by the commissioner.
The reflex reflector mounted on the front wheel shall be colorless or
amber, and the reflex reflector mounted on the rear wheel shall be
colorless or red.
(e) Every bicycle when in use during the period from one-half hour
after sunset to one-half hour before sunrise shall be equipped with
reflective devices or material meeting the standards established by
rules and regulations promulgated by the commissioner; provided,
however, that such standards shall not be inconsistent with or otherwise
conflict with the requirements of subdivisions (a) and (d) of this
section.
I'm not trying to get into some big A&S discussion, but I know that I see loads of road cyclists with the reflectors removed, akin to the ceremonial removal of the dork disc, it's part of the stylistic bris that happens when you don bib shorts... but if there's a token reflector that ensures that we are all covered legally in the event of an accident, that would be a good bit of knowledge to be armed with.
So, any of you smart folks know what the bare minimum is that I can get away with?
09-17-14, 02:14 PM
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Here is what BC laws require. I see no mention of wheel or pedal reflectors. I cannot find what is Insurance Corporation of British Columbia (ICBC, public insurance) classifies as approved.
I have seen mention that reflectors on shoes satisfy some pedal reflector requirements. I like my old shoes with a lot of reflective silver and my shoe covers also. Not sure how good my new shoes are though. I have wheel reflectors on my LHT and I am about to get spoke reflectors.
Motor Vehicle Act
Section 183 Paragraph 6 (and 7):
(6) A cycle operated on a highway between 1/2 hour after sunset and 1/2 hour before sunrise must have the following equipment:
(a) a lighted lamp mounted on the front and under normal atmospheric conditions capable of displaying a white light visible at least 150 m in the direction the cycle is pointed;
(b) a red reflector of a make or design approved by the Insurance Corporation of British Columbia for the purposes of this section;
(c) a lighted lamp, mounted and visible to the rear, displaying a red light.
(7) Despite any other provision of this Act or the regulations, a cycle may be equipped with a flashing red light that is of a make or design approved by the Insurance Corporation of British Columbia for the purposes of this section.
I have seen mention that reflectors on shoes satisfy some pedal reflector requirements. I like my old shoes with a lot of reflective silver and my shoe covers also. Not sure how good my new shoes are though. I have wheel reflectors on my LHT and I am about to get spoke reflectors.
Motor Vehicle Act
Section 183 Paragraph 6 (and 7):
(6) A cycle operated on a highway between 1/2 hour after sunset and 1/2 hour before sunrise must have the following equipment:
(a) a lighted lamp mounted on the front and under normal atmospheric conditions capable of displaying a white light visible at least 150 m in the direction the cycle is pointed;
(b) a red reflector of a make or design approved by the Insurance Corporation of British Columbia for the purposes of this section;
(c) a lighted lamp, mounted and visible to the rear, displaying a red light.
(7) Despite any other provision of this Act or the regulations, a cycle may be equipped with a flashing red light that is of a make or design approved by the Insurance Corporation of British Columbia for the purposes of this section.