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Nikola Pedals

Old 09-25-14, 07:34 PM
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Nikola Pedals

Supposed to increase power by getting a "skate" lateral movement into the pedal stroke.

Anyone try it at interbike??

Nikola pedals are designed to let you cycle like a skater
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Old 09-25-14, 08:19 PM
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Main problem is the price.


But if you can drop $5000 on a road bike, $400 is nothing for top of the line pedals.
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Old 09-25-14, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by NormanF View Post
Main problem is the price.
Main problem is that it moves your foot higher off the center of the spindle.
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Old 09-25-14, 08:32 PM
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Presuming their research was accurate it is still going to take a LOT of training to learn how to pedal with these. Just like most people are mashers and a big part of becoming a better cyclists is learning how to pedal through the entire stroke, this is going to take a lot of practice to learn. I'd put that down as a big barrier to success.

If you don't learn the pedaling technique they espouse, then it's not going to be much different than other pedals, I would think.

J.
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Old 09-26-14, 05:36 AM
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Originally Posted by JohnJ80 View Post
Presuming their research was accurate it is still going to take a LOT of training to learn how to pedal with these. Just like most people are mashers and a big part of becoming a better cyclists is learning how to pedal through the entire stroke, this is going to take a lot of practice to learn. I'd put that down as a big barrier to success.

If you don't learn the pedaling technique they espouse, then it's not going to be much different than other pedals, I would think.

J.
Agree 100%, formerly on Speedplay Zero Pedals I ended up with a float of less than 1° since I just don't move my foot or leg that much "out of alignment" during each pedal stroke. Was it easy to get there, no, took lots of miles and one-legged drills. For various reasons I dumped every single Speedplay pedal I owned and went back to Shimano SPD-SL. The yellow cleats are like pedaling on sheets of ice, the blue are better, I use the red cleats. Not sure what Nikola is trying to "fix" here.

$340 and $550 for pedals is a bit outrageous, maybe if they threw in some strain gauges, accelerometers, ANT+, Bluetooth LE, and raised the price by just $200 per set they would be remotely interesting.
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Old 09-27-14, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by WheresWaldo View Post
Not sure what Nikola is trying to "fix" here.
You've missed the whole point of the pedals, which is to "add" muscle engagement, not "fix" some element of standard pedaling.

Originally Posted by WheresWaldo View Post
$340 and $550 for pedals is a bit outrageous, maybe if they threw in some strain gauges, accelerometers, ANT+, Bluetooth LE, and raised the price by just $200 per set they would be remotely interesting.
You're apparently unaware of pedals like the Speedplay Zero Ti, Speedplay Nanogram, Time Xpresso 12 Titan Carbon, or Look Keo Blade 2 Ti, none of which offer strain gauges, accelerometers, BTLE or ANT+, yet are EXACTLY in the same price range.
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Old 09-27-14, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by chaadster View Post
You've missed the whole point of the pedals, which is to "add" muscle engagement, not "fix" some element of standard pedaling.
Cargo Cult

Originally Posted by chaadster View Post
You're apparently unaware of pedals like the Speedplay Zero Ti, Speedplay Nanogram, Time Xpresso 12 Titan Carbon, or Look Keo Blade 2 Ti, none of which offer strain gauges, accelerometers, BTLE or ANT+, yet are EXACTLY in the same price range.
Of course, this discussion was limited to Nikola, not any of the other pedals you brought into this conversation. The fact that those pedals are also overpriced should be left for another discussion. I had seven pairs of Speedplays including two pairs of Zero Ti and two pairs of Zero Stainless. I am well aware of what Speedplay offers. All gone now. You also appear to have stopped reading and responded right after I mentioned the price, since I did say add $200 to each pair along with all the other things I mentioned and they would be marginally interesting.
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Old 09-27-14, 03:38 PM
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This is the problem that non cyclist type scientists have when they try to engineer something that is supposedly better than the traditional way of doing things. The pedals are one of the control points of a bicycle. If your foot moves laterally, your body will move laterally the other direction, steering the bike in the process. You will end up riding in a serpentine motion; fine for triathletes, terrible for everyone else. Notice, even in their brief video, the rider couldn't keep the bars straight even riding a trainer.
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Old 09-27-14, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by chaadster View Post
You're apparently unaware of pedals like the Speedplay Zero Ti, Speedplay Nanogram, Time Xpresso 12 Titan Carbon, or Look Keo Blade 2 Ti, none of which offer strain gauges, accelerometers, BTLE or ANT+, yet are EXACTLY in the same price range.

Nikola Titanium is $549 or a 64% premium over Speedplay.
Speedplay Zero Titanium is $335

Nikola Stainless is $339 or a 70% premium over Speedplay
Speedplay Zero Stainless is $199

So they are not in the exact same price range. Basically, what Nikola sells is up a category in price. Their stainless sells for Speedplay's Titanium prices.

These are considerably more expensive than their peer pedals.

J.
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Old 09-27-14, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by WheresWaldo View Post
Cargo Cult


Of course, this discussion was limited to Nikola, not any of the other pedals you brought into this conversation. The fact that those pedals are also overpriced should be left for another discussion. I had seven pairs of Speedplays including two pairs of Zero Ti and two pairs of Zero Stainless. I am well aware of what Speedplay offers. All gone now. You also appear to have stopped reading and responded right after I mentioned the price, since I did say add $200 to each pair along with all the other things I mentioned and they would be marginally interesting.
I guess I did miss your point then, since you already own $340 pedals. What was your point about pricing outrageousness? That it's only outrageous for these pedals which try to deliver something no other pedal does? Not sure I buy into your reasoning, or understand how you can reasonably expect a small startup to deliver the value of longtime and large scale producers, but I don't begrudge Speedplay, or anyone else, making their money or you giving it to them.

As to the cargo cult thing, if you mean aping the skating motion to gain power on the bike, I agree. I think it's a pretty silly precept to proceed from, and that this will be a dead-end. However, their idea is still not a fix for anything, but rather an attempt to add, or harness, more power and efficiency.
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Old 09-27-14, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnJ80 View Post
Nikola Titanium is $549 or a 64% premium over Speedplay.
Speedplay Zero Titanium is $335

Nikola Stainless is $339 or a 70% premium over Speedplay
Speedplay Zero Stainless is $199

So they are not in the exact same price range. Basically, what Nikola sells is up a category in price. Their stainless sells for Speedplay's Titanium prices.

These are considerably more expensive than their peer pedals.

J.
That's just silliness.
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Old 09-28-14, 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by chaadster View Post
I guess I did miss your point then, since you already own $340 pedals. What was your point about pricing outrageousness? That it's only outrageous for these pedals which try to deliver something no other pedal does? Not sure I buy into your reasoning, or understand how you can reasonably expect a small startup to deliver the value of longtime and large scale producers, but I don't begrudge Speedplay, or anyone else, making their money or you giving it to them.

As to the cargo cult thing, if you mean aping the skating motion to gain power on the bike, I agree. I think it's a pretty silly precept to proceed from, and that this will be a dead-end. However, their idea is still not a fix for anything, but rather an attempt to add, or harness, more power and efficiency.
chaadster That was really what I was getting at, aping the skating motion is, in my opinion, junk science. It would definitely add to the side load of the pedal bearings and I would think the movement is way too short to be of any real benefit, we are only talking about less than an inch (their words "up to 25mm"). I can't really see how this would be good for other physiology, knees, ankles, etc. You were correct pointing out that "fix" was the wrong term to use in this instance.

As far as Speedplay goes, love their pedals, hate the way they run their company. One principle loves engineering, the other litigation. I dumped all seven pairs of Speedplays I owned about a year ago. Had I been posting on this board then, and not on hiatus, some could have gotten some great deals.

Pricing: JohnJ80 has already pointed out that their pricing is not inline with other premium pedals, it is outrageous. That's why, tongue in cheek I suggested adding $200 more to each set and make them a competitor to the Vector S pedals (single sensor version).
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Old 09-28-14, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by chaadster View Post
That's just silliness.
No, it's straight up math with prices taken from their websites.
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Old 09-28-14, 08:44 AM
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Does this influence the "Q" factor? Bike-fit ?
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Old 09-28-14, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by JohnJ80 View Post
No, it's straight up math with prices taken from their websites.
I know what the numbers are, silly man.

What you're not getting is that my point was not to match the words "titanium" and "stainless" from Speedplay and Nikola and see which were more expensive, but to look at the price range of existing pedal manufacturers and to see that the Nikola pedals are priced right in line with other top pedals, and are not outrageously high. Sure they're expensive, but not moreso than others.

Simply comparing pricing based on materials used in each model without factoring in a premium for Nikola's peculiar movement is straight-up silliness.
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Old 09-28-14, 08:57 AM
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How exactly does lateral float incease efficiency? Unlike skating, it does nothing to propel the bike forward.
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Old 09-28-14, 08:59 AM
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Those pedals look silly.
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Old 09-28-14, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by chaadster View Post
I know what the numbers are, silly man.

What you're not getting is that my point was not to match the words "titanium" and "stainless" from Speedplay and Nikola and see which were more expensive, but to look at the price range of existing pedal manufacturers and to see that the Nikola pedals are priced right in line with other top pedals, and are not outrageously high. Sure they're expensive, but not moreso than others.

Simply comparing pricing based on materials used in each model without factoring in a premium for Nikola's peculiar movement is straight-up silliness.

Calling people names does not help your argument.

Furthermore, they pair up in terms of high and low in the product line. The big question, and the one you are missing by a mile, is whether the market will pay a 60-70% premium for their skating muscle group feature. Speedplay had the same issue with free float but they had the staying power to get a lot of pedals out there and to have a lot of professionals use them and like them. Remains to be seen if these pedals are able to follow the same path. The challenge here will be getting cyclists to pedal differently. Speedplay, on the float issues, didn't have to climb a bar that high.

It doesn't help to go out and price your product in the same range as the competition just to have the same price. Pricing a Yugo like a BMW doesn't get the BMW crowd looking at it and buying it. If it was junk before, it's just higher priced junk.

My bet is that you will see (first) a big drop in pricing when they don't sell. You will then see them go away given the pedaling technique change required. I doubt you will see any of the pros sign up to use these.

They may benefit from the likely better and wider range of q factor support they get (accidental - I don't think they set out to give Q factor support) although Speedplay has that pretty well covered too and can make a claim to that corner of the market.

At any rate, I'm not holding my breath that this will be successful. I think they are too expensive, the value proposition is murky and there isn't a whole lot to support their claim other than their advertising. I'm wondering if we even see them a year from now.

J.
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Old 09-28-14, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by chaadster View Post
I know what the numbers are, silly man.

What you're not getting is that my point was not to match the words "titanium" and "stainless" from Speedplay and Nikola and see which were more expensive, but to look at the price range of existing pedal manufacturers and to see that the Nikola pedals are priced right in line with other top pedals, and are not outrageously high. Sure they're expensive, but not moreso than others.

Simply comparing pricing based on materials used in each model without factoring in a premium for Nikola's peculiar movement is straight-up silliness.
chaadster I know what you're trying to say, but Nikola used those words to differentiate their pedal tiers. Titanium is only the spindle material in both Nikola and Speedplay, so a direct comparison is warranted.

Time Xpresso12 use a titanium spindle and are priced at $399 MSRP. I am not sure the Xpresso15 are out yet. and the 15 are a big step up from the Nikola "Titanium".

JohnJ80 the Time Xpresso12 & 15 let you adjust Q-Factor.

Regardless of all the picking at nits here, almost everyone has dissed this pedal. Amazing amount of agreement that these won't be on their shopping list or appear in the http://www.bikeforums.net/road-cycli...-purchase.html thread.

Error: The entire Time Xpresso line allows you to adjust Q-Factor
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Old 09-28-14, 10:02 AM
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I started this thread, so I think it's ok to inject some humor into it.

Now, whenever I see "Nikola" I hear, in my mind, someone singing "Nikola" to the tune of "Ricola" with this image:




p.s. I suspect these pedals will go nowhere, but I applaud new ideas in cycling. Even if they are fail, like back-up-barz.
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Old 09-28-14, 10:32 AM
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The pedal is not free to slide in and out but rather constrained to move in and out as the crank rotates, so the pedal will be closest to the crank arm at the top of crank rotation and furthest at the bottom. This means that outward force on the pedal during the downstroke does impart torque to the crank and so can contribute power as the crank rotates. (in ward force on the upstroke can also contribute power). IMO, it's difficult to say if this is beneficial or not just by thinking about it as it's pretty complicated depending on cycling dynamics and human physiology. I'd like to see the results of some good independent testing.
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Old 09-28-14, 10:49 AM
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M540 pedals + comfy CT40 shoes = About $100 total spent in clippless nirvana.
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Old 09-28-14, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by loimpact View Post
M540 pedals + comfy CT40 shoes = About $100 total spent in clippless nirvana.
Cool story. What does it have to do with the OP's thread?
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Old 09-28-14, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Looigi View Post
The pedal is not free to slide in and out but rather constrained to move in and out as the crank rotates, so the pedal will be closest to the crank arm at the top of crank rotation and furthest at the bottom. This means that outward force on the pedal during the downstroke does impart torque to the crank and so can contribute power as the crank rotates. (in ward force on the upstroke can also contribute power). IMO, it's difficult to say if this is beneficial or not just by thinking about it as it's pretty complicated depending on cycling dynamics and human physiology. I'd like to see the results of some good independent testing.
How is this any different than just putting some pressure on the inside or outside of your foot during the pedal stroke. Movement is too small to be of any significant value.

I am sure the conversation was this, "I think if we let your foot slide out during the downstroke it will add efficiency and power." "Really, do you have proof?" "Who needs proof, just sell the pedals for a 70% premium over other high end pedals, people will believe whatever we tell them." "Okay let's do it!"

So, one thing is for sure, Nikola has got us talking about their pedals, I am sure that is something they like. Too bad it's nearly all negative.
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Old 09-28-14, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Looigi View Post
The pedal is not free to slide in and out but rather constrained to move in and out as the crank rotates, so the pedal will be closest to the crank arm at the top of crank rotation and furthest at the bottom. This means that outward force on the pedal during the downstroke does impart torque to the crank and so can contribute power as the crank rotates. (in ward force on the upstroke can also contribute power). IMO, it's difficult to say if this is beneficial or not just by thinking about it as it's pretty complicated depending on cycling dynamics and human physiology. I'd like to see the results of some good independent testing.
Interesting. I can see this would also promote heel drop during the down stroke, which could cause a whole new variety of overuse injuries in the mid and long term.
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