amazinmets73

I'm in the process of buying bike materials for a build and am waffling between tubulars and clinchers. I was told by someone whose opinion I hold in high esteem that tubulars offer close to zero puncture protection, therefore clinchers are my best bet. I'd like some second opinions though.

My priorities, listed in order of importance are:

1: Puncture protection
2: Ride comfort
3: Weight and performance
4: Cost of maintenance

topflightpro

If you are worried about punctures, don't buy tubulars. It's a simple as that.

Instead, I suggest you look at Tubeless. They offer a ride closer to tubulars but require less work than tubulars. They also have pretty good puncture protection, as you usually need some sort of sealant in them.

amazinmets73

Probably a stupid question, but... Do you need a particular wheelset to install tubeless tires?

canam73

Many newer wheels/rims are tubeless compatible. Many older ones can be made so using a kit from Stan's.

chi-james

Tubeless is fine but tire choices are still rather limited and nearly as pricey as a quality tubular tire (you'll need an air compressor to initially seat the tire to the rim), if you already have tubular rims, Stans sealant can be used in tubular tires also so there's that; you could also use sealant in your clinchers if your tubes have removable valve cores. I add sealant where ever I can...

All of the above have their own set of hassles, most people are familiar with the idiosyncrasies of clinchers, but you can become just as familiar with tubeless or tubular tires too...

For performance and weight, I think tubulars are still hard to beat, you can get close in weight and performance with both tubeless and clincher but price is a wash at that level (assuming you already have the necessary wheelsets)

amazinmets73

Are the Shimano RS11 and RS21 wheels tubeless compatible?

canam73

I believe they are of the type you need a kit for (Road Tubeless). If you go up to the Ultegra wheel it comes with a "tubeless ready" rim meaning no exposed spoke holes.

But I am not experienced with those wheels or the kit, so hopefully somebody who is will chime in.

jsigone

get tubs w/ removable valve core. use 1oz of stans sealant right before you mount the tubs to the rims. impossible to add stans w/ valve extenders so don't try or waste glue.

rpenmanparker 

The air compressor is not necessary. A CO2 inflator should do the trick.

Doge

I find fewer punctures on the *same weight* tubular.

Here is an unscientific poll: Puncture Poll - road, non racing - Weight Weenies

I <3 Robots

1 and 2 don't really go hand in hand...its typically either or.

I run tubs as my only set of wheels. When i really cared about the ride quality...I ran the Vittoria Corsa Evo's. Rode great, but can't get more than a few hundred miles out of them. At about 90 bucks a tire...it got expensive quick.

I now run the Sprinter Gatorskins with some Stan's in them...its been about 1500 miles and no problems.

amazinmets73

whats your opinion on the performance of the Gatorskins?

iab

I'm confused.

What is the magic in a clincher that makes it less prone to flats than the exact same rubber compound used in a tubular?

canam73

No magic and not less prone if the construction is equal, but that includes the casing and whatever protection layers are added. And the tube and psi. In fact, tubulars typically won't pinch flat so in that regard they are definitely less prone.

It is that when you get a puncture it is easier, cheaper and faster to get going with a clincher than a tubular.

big chainring

Glass was always the culprit in punctures when I was putting in big miles. One word Ben, plastics. Rarely run into the glass mine fields like there used to be.

JohnJ80

I've been riding tubulars for about the last 5 years. My punctures and flats have dropped to 1/6th to 1/8th of what they were with clinchers tires. In the 2000 miles of riding this year, I have not had a single flat tire. That is true of last year as well. Before this, using clinchers, I used to get about 6-8 flats per year. I ride on rural roads, on the shoulder where there is all kinds of glass and junk. The last flat I got was when I ran the tire down to the cords to see just how far it would go and just how well the sealant would do. When the cords were showing all around the tire, it finally flatted. I don't attribute this flat to the tire, it was me pushing it until it was completely worn out.

I use Tufo Tubulars. These are tubeless tubulars. I run them with Stans sealant in them. I don't glue them on, I use the Tufo tape. This is an outstanding system and I'd recommend it to anyone. Anyone who has had to take a tire off that is held on by the tape realizes that there is no way these are coming off the rim even if you flat while riding. Not true with clinchers.

With the tape, there is no gluing. The tape goes on in about 30 seconds. Mount the tire (another minute), roll the tire and and it is bonded in less than 20 feet of travel. The hardest part is getting the tire off the rim, but once you get it started (use a plastic tire lever), it comes off very quickly.

Most people who tell you not to use tubulars or tell you what a "mess" they are or how hard they are to change have never ridden them. I can change a tubular tire in about as much time (maybe a bit longer) as it takes me to change a clincher tire. Given that I hardly ever have to do it, I could probably be faster.

An aluminum tubular wheel and tire is probably about 300grams lighter than an equivalent clincher wheel. That's a big difference and very noticeable when you ride.

My bike shop convinced me to go the tubular route and I'm glad I did. I have most of my family on tubulars now, I think they are safer and they are certainly a lot less maintenance. I also like the ride better.

J.

I <3 Robots

IMO...the performance is pretty good. Not as plush as a higher end tubular...but good enough for me.

iab

I completely agree about the cheaper. But swapping tubular tires on the road is a 5 minute job, no fuss no muss. Swapping a tube on the road requires tire irons, checking the tire for whatever shard caused the flat and a prayer to the cycling gods that I don't pinch the tube when putting on tight clinchers. Easier and faster is tubular, not clincher.

canam73

5 minutes for you using your Tufos and tape.


I've tried a pair of them. If Tufos were the only tubular on the market there wouldn't be a Tubular market. Their tires and system are for people who want to say they ride tubulars without caring about the actual ride advantages a good tubular can offer. The didn't offer a ride nearly as close to the Vittoria tubulars I race on as the better clinchers I have tried.


And yes, I do ride tubulars (for racing) and do not use or recommend them for training or everyday riding. I typically only flat every 1000 miles or so on the clinchers I ride which feel better to me than the Tufos. And since you mentioned that you do swap tires on the road it means you are carrying a spare. There goes a good chunk of your proposed weight advantage. But that part doesn't much matter to me either way when I am not racing.


And no, I can't change a tubular in 5 minutes. If I could, I wouldn't believe it was on securely enough. I can barely get the tires I glue on off with out destroying them. But that is for racing where I do everything I can to ensure that I don't role a tire and take out half the field. If I was casual riding I might be ok with tape.


But that brings me back to looking for an advantage of riding on a taped Tufo over a clincher. And I haven't found one.

JohnJ80

I think the tire selection in tubulars is similar to the tire selection in clinchers in that it's personal preference. I rode the far better than average clinchers and I'd rate the Tufos as better than that. I do agree that the Tufos are not the best tubular but they are average or better. But that aside, it's personal preference. Use whatever tires you want. One of the advantages is that you pretty much eliminate one whole category of flats (pinch flats) that happen with clinchers (except tubeless but that gets messy). That's a big advantage.

I don't carry an extra tire when I ride because I never flat. I do carry a puncture repair sealant that will fix most things (maybe 80%) or to where I would have had to replace the tire (i.e. slice that would wipe out a clincher anyhow). After that, it's time for a phone call. I've not had to do either in a very, very long time (years). Big advantage since I ride in a heavily wooded area. Stopping in the summer time means changing a tire in mosquito infested areas - to be avoided at all costs.

Even if you carry the extra tire and the weight was even up, I'd take the 300 grams off my wheels any day and trade that for the same on my frame. That's such a lopsided trade in favor of tubulars it's not even funny.

So tubulars - for me - way better in terms of puncture/flats. Ride similar or better. Acceleration and climbing - way better due to lower wheel weight. More time riding less time fooling with tires. That's a winner all the way around.

J.

canam73

Do people really pinch flat all that often? The last one I can remember was due to a slow leak I didn't find until I was patching the pinch damage. When they occur it is almost always user error in riding on to low of a PSI. If somebody can't properly inflate a tire do you really trust them to properly install a tubular?

I have pleasure of not riding in goathead country or anything like that, but it seems to me that is true for most people. Using racier clinchers from Mich and Conti I typically get between 1-4 flats a year from bits of glass or wire. I can change a clincher in about 5 minutes. I tend to save up flats and patch all at once. It's a pretty simple process that takes less than a half hour. So my yearly time cost to flat tires is less than an hour. Holy crap is time not an issue for clinchers.

As for where weight counts, take a close look at the results here: How much time does extra weight cost on Alpe d?Huez? The supposed advantages of reducing wheel weight are so blown out of proportion it's not even funny.

JohnJ80

Depends on rider size, tire inflation and roads. For example, I'm not a little guy and I ride on rural roads full of patches and un-smooth pavement. Pinch flats occur more often for me with clinchers than punctures. I pump my tires up to the recommended tire pressure before every ride. With the tubular tires there are pretty much no pinch flats. Sealant takes care of the rest.

Mounting a tubular tire is not some kind of brain surgery. It's easier to mount and harder to screw up than a clincher. You don't have to worry about pinching the tube, you don't have to worry about seating the bead properly. Here's a good video that explains it. Only trick is learning how to get the tire stretched over the rim as you put it on (all technique) and is not much more difficult than doing the same with a clincher (also all technique but different). When it's on, and even if it should flat, you don't have to worry about it rolling off when/if it flats either.

As far as the weight issue - for starters, you've completely missed the point and the article you cite is about static weight on a bike (i.e. frame weight). If I have a bike of a given weight, I'd much rather have 300g less on the wheels (rotating weight) and add 300g on the frame (static weight) than the other way around. But that's not even the case, I still get to have 300-400g lighter wheels and not have to add it to the frame. On the frame, less is better than more but I agree that 300g on the frame is inconsequential for non racing riders (and was my point, actually). But, if you want, you can ride the heavier wheels if you don't think it matters. 300g is 2/3rds of a pound. That's a LOT of weight on a wheel.

J.

canam73

If you were pinch flatting regularly then you should have pumped up your tires more or moved to a bigger tire (or wider rims).

Speaking of missing things, please read (or re-read) my posts in this thread. I use tubulars regularly and have no problem mounting them or clinchers. Both systems work, they just work better for different situations.

One more thing you missed, whatever you think the point of the article is does not matter. Go back and look at his results for set up 1 & 2. The two watt difference is actually enough to make up the 30 sec difference on it's own. But if you need to be hit over the head with something more specific, try this one: Wheel Performance (note that wheel weight difference much larger than what we are talking about made <1% difference even in the all climbing portions and racing portions of the test).

And again, I race on a tubular wheel/tire set up that weighs 420g less than the clincher set I usually train on. I know exactly what the difference feels like.

JohnJ80

The tires are inflated to spec and they are the proper sized tire. We have rough roads and there is no way around it. I'm not going to put some huge clincher tire on just to minimize flats and change the entire handling and ride characteristics when there is a better way that gives me the ride quality, the handling, and the performance without the repair issue.

Whichever way you cut it, reduced mass in terms of rotating weight, or reduced mass in terms of static weight - either case is beneficial to tubulars.

As you note, both systems work and are roughly equivalent in terms of changing a tire. If you get less flats with one over the other (in practice, not theoretical), you have lower weight (either kind), then why not ride them and is that not a benefit?

Also interesting that if, as your article maintains, that light rotating weight doesn't really matter then why even both racing on them? The reason is there is a difference and it is beneficial. Otherwise it's a fashion statement.

J.

canam73

I'm only the replying to the bold part as the rest I already addressed even if you choose to ignore it.

Why I race tubulars:

#1 reason is if I do flat I can probably ride the wheel around to the wheel pit to change a wheel and keep racing. I won't do that on a clincher.

#2 (and I would think this is rare either way) but if I get a flat in a high speed corner I am probably slightly less likely to go down and take out other riders. Thankfully this hasn't happened to me to test with either type but I do want give others any safety advantage I can.

The above are really the decision maker. But past that I do think the better tubulars ride nicer and in combination with the wheel present lighter options. Even the <1% difference the weight makes during a sprint can work out to 5-6' so it could make difference at the end.

But then I am talking about tires that I don't even consider using the "open tubular" (otherwise know as clincher) version of for training/daily riding because they are not long lasting or puncture resistant and cost double what I pay for decent clinchers.

And when racing the time and ease of changing a flat do not matter because your are going to change your wheel to a pre inflated spare and take care of the flat later. So there are no drawbacks to speak of.

When I am not racing I am not going to ride a flat tire anywhere so reason #1 is irrelevant. The few group rides I do never develop the kind of packs that occur in races and do not have 'crit' type corners so issue #2 is not much of a worry, either. As for the weight, if you average 20mph for a training ride the tubulars will put you at 20.2. No, that doesn't concern me either. Say I do a century on them, I will finish at most 3 minutes sooner. Oh well.

As for fashion, my race wheels are generic carbon on novatec hubs that are shod with all black tires. They do not stand out as tubulars and they do not elicit jealousy.