Power meter question - Powertap wheel.
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Power meter question - Powertap wheel.
I would like to purchase my first power meter and have been looking at the differences and the pros and cons at dcrainmaker's site. I have it narrowed down to either a Powertap wheel, stages unit, or the Garmin Vector S but have a couple of questions on the powertap wheel.
Does the data off the PT rely on the stiffness of the wheel or does it not matter at all? I currently use Rolf Prima Vigor RS wheels, so low spoke count. It is a nice wheel and I haven't had any problems with it but I really don't know if it is the stiffest wheel out there. I get very few chances to ride other wheels to compare it to. I noticed on Rolf's website they can make a Powertap vigor RS wheel and though it would be nice just to be able to swap the one for the other when I wanted without changing the brake setup. I am a little worried about using a PT hub with that low of a spoke count. What does everybody think about that combination? Would it be a decent power meter set up or should I look elsewhere for something with a few more spokes (assuming more spokes equal stiffer)?
If you were in the market for a powertap wheel(set), what would you go with in today's market?
thanks
Does the data off the PT rely on the stiffness of the wheel or does it not matter at all? I currently use Rolf Prima Vigor RS wheels, so low spoke count. It is a nice wheel and I haven't had any problems with it but I really don't know if it is the stiffest wheel out there. I get very few chances to ride other wheels to compare it to. I noticed on Rolf's website they can make a Powertap vigor RS wheel and though it would be nice just to be able to swap the one for the other when I wanted without changing the brake setup. I am a little worried about using a PT hub with that low of a spoke count. What does everybody think about that combination? Would it be a decent power meter set up or should I look elsewhere for something with a few more spokes (assuming more spokes equal stiffer)?
If you were in the market for a powertap wheel(set), what would you go with in today's market?
thanks
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I'm not a fan of paired spokes, so I'd pass on Rolf anything. Bear in mind that if you get serious about training with power, you'll want to have it for every ride. So you'll want a wheelset suitable for pretty much every type of riding you do.
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A good solution might be something like H Plus Son Archetypes with 2.0/1.8 spokes of your choice in a count suitable for your weight and riding conditions and a good front hub like a DT-240s. Go with CX-Rays if you've got some money to burn.
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Yeah, I've also been checking out November wheels and thinking if I didn't go Rolf I would get them to build something in aluminium. I'm confused about the rims to pick and have to do more research but they build with CX-Ray spokes.
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I would like to purchase my first power meter and have been looking at the differences and the pros and cons at dcrainmaker's site. I have it narrowed down to either a Powertap wheel, stages unit, or the Garmin Vector S but have a couple of questions on the powertap wheel.
Does the data off the PT rely on the stiffness of the wheel or does it not matter at all? I currently use Rolf Prima Vigor RS wheels, so low spoke count. It is a nice wheel and I haven't had any problems with it but I really don't know if it is the stiffest wheel out there. I get very few chances to ride other wheels to compare it to. I noticed on Rolf's website they can make a Powertap vigor RS wheel and though it would be nice just to be able to swap the one for the other when I wanted without changing the brake setup. I am a little worried about using a PT hub with that low of a spoke count. What does everybody think about that combination? Would it be a decent power meter set up or should I look elsewhere for something with a few more spokes (assuming more spokes equal stiffer)?
If you were in the market for a powertap wheel(set), what would you go with in today's market?
thanks
Does the data off the PT rely on the stiffness of the wheel or does it not matter at all? I currently use Rolf Prima Vigor RS wheels, so low spoke count. It is a nice wheel and I haven't had any problems with it but I really don't know if it is the stiffest wheel out there. I get very few chances to ride other wheels to compare it to. I noticed on Rolf's website they can make a Powertap vigor RS wheel and though it would be nice just to be able to swap the one for the other when I wanted without changing the brake setup. I am a little worried about using a PT hub with that low of a spoke count. What does everybody think about that combination? Would it be a decent power meter set up or should I look elsewhere for something with a few more spokes (assuming more spokes equal stiffer)?
If you were in the market for a powertap wheel(set), what would you go with in today's market?
thanks
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I would like to purchase my first power meter and have been looking at the differences and the pros and cons at dcrainmaker's site. I have it narrowed down to either a Powertap wheel, stages unit, or the Garmin Vector S but have a couple of questions on the powertap wheel.
Does the data off the PT rely on the stiffness of the wheel or does it not matter at all? I currently use Rolf Prima Vigor RS wheels, so low spoke count. It is a nice wheel and I haven't had any problems with it but I really don't know if it is the stiffest wheel out there. I get very few chances to ride other wheels to compare it to. I noticed on Rolf's website they can make a Powertap vigor RS wheel and though it would be nice just to be able to swap the one for the other when I wanted without changing the brake setup. I am a little worried about using a PT hub with that low of a spoke count. What does everybody think about that combination? Would it be a decent power meter set up or should I look elsewhere for something with a few more spokes (assuming more spokes equal stiffer)?
If you were in the market for a powertap wheel(set), what would you go with in today's market?
thanks
Does the data off the PT rely on the stiffness of the wheel or does it not matter at all? I currently use Rolf Prima Vigor RS wheels, so low spoke count. It is a nice wheel and I haven't had any problems with it but I really don't know if it is the stiffest wheel out there. I get very few chances to ride other wheels to compare it to. I noticed on Rolf's website they can make a Powertap vigor RS wheel and though it would be nice just to be able to swap the one for the other when I wanted without changing the brake setup. I am a little worried about using a PT hub with that low of a spoke count. What does everybody think about that combination? Would it be a decent power meter set up or should I look elsewhere for something with a few more spokes (assuming more spokes equal stiffer)?
If you were in the market for a powertap wheel(set), what would you go with in today's market?
thanks
If I were in the market for a Powertap wheel today, I have had a great experience with Boyd's Altamont (6,200 miles, still as true as new), and I don't think you're going to find one that is better per dollar. A friend I ride with frequently has one of the HED wheels marketed by Powertap itself with no complaints either. I think that's one of the benefits of Powertap hubs, the data and reliability tend to be very stable over a wide range of different applications. In other words, if you are not getting good performance out of a PT wheel it's likely from bad wheelbuilding. Thus, as long as you go with a semi-reputable builder you'll be okay with whichever choice.
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I think that you would be better served by not getting a hub/wheel based power meter. As others have pointed out, what if you wanted to switch wheels?
I like the stages way of doing it, I would also go for the Quarq Elsa if the price was around $1,000.
I like the stages way of doing it, I would also go for the Quarq Elsa if the price was around $1,000.
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I would like to purchase my first power meter and have been looking at the differences and the pros and cons at dcrainmaker's site. I have it narrowed down to either a Powertap wheel, stages unit, or the Garmin Vector S but have a couple of questions on the powertap wheel.
Does the data off the PT rely on the stiffness of the wheel or does it not matter at all? I currently use Rolf Prima Vigor RS wheels, so low spoke count.
Does the data off the PT rely on the stiffness of the wheel or does it not matter at all? I currently use Rolf Prima Vigor RS wheels, so low spoke count.
The data quality you get from a PT will be superior to the data quality you get from a Stages or Vector S.
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I just picked up a set of Williams System 30 carbon tubulars (24-spoke) with a PowerTap G3 a couple of months ago. So far, so good.
I did a comparison of all the pros and cons of various power meters, and the hub-based was easiest for me since I didn't have to change cranks or anything like that. The pedal-based power meters are not quite as convenient as they would seem from what I hear - a pain to set up, and restricted to certain cleat types, not to mention the Garmin Vector were the same price as my complete wheelset with the PowerTap hub. I might actually buy another PT and have a second wheel rebuilt with it, not sure yet. I've only just begun exploring training with a power meter.
I did a comparison of all the pros and cons of various power meters, and the hub-based was easiest for me since I didn't have to change cranks or anything like that. The pedal-based power meters are not quite as convenient as they would seem from what I hear - a pain to set up, and restricted to certain cleat types, not to mention the Garmin Vector were the same price as my complete wheelset with the PowerTap hub. I might actually buy another PT and have a second wheel rebuilt with it, not sure yet. I've only just begun exploring training with a power meter.
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Regarding RChung's assertion that the data is superior from a PT, yes, we need to concede that, as the hub is measuring the fullness of your output, compared to Stages or Vector S -- gotta distinguish that "S", as it is the one-sided Vector model-- which only measure half your output and extrapolate the fullness of it.
Now that said, the calculated wattage values from a single leg device (Stages, VectorS) are very close to full measurement devices like PT, Vector, or Quarq, and particularly within the context of amateur training, I think it's awfully hard to rationalize the benefit of the most accurate systems over single leg system. What's most important is not the actual accuracy of the wattage measurement itself, but rather the reliability of consistent measurement so that work and progress can be accurately tracked. I believe most, if not all, tests have shown that single-leg measuring systems can provide repeatable and reliable data output.
Sure, if you're training requires measuring individual leg outputs, then a single sided system ain't gonna get it, but I'd be shocked to learn that anyone outside of the most elite pro cyclists actually need that kind of granularity. It would be nice to have, even for my humble use, however I don't see a rational justification for making that the basis for choosing a meter system in 99% of the cycling, power-meter-using,population, and would argue that flexibility for the intended application should be the primary factor in most cases. For example, as was mentioned upthread, if you want to change wheels (maybe for the tires), do you want to sacrifice your power meter for that? Are you more likely to change wheels than crank? How about crank changes compared to pedal changes? How many bikes do you have?
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I think this needs some clarification, so that if you are leaning towards a PT or whichever, that you're doing it for the right reasons.
Regarding RChung's assertion that the data is superior from a PT, yes, we need to concede that, as the hub is measuring the fullness of your output, compared to Stages or Vector S -- gotta distinguish that "S", as it is the one-sided Vector model-- which only measure half your output and extrapolate the fullness of it.
Regarding RChung's assertion that the data is superior from a PT, yes, we need to concede that, as the hub is measuring the fullness of your output, compared to Stages or Vector S -- gotta distinguish that "S", as it is the one-sided Vector model-- which only measure half your output and extrapolate the fullness of it.
The Stages may be fine for estimating training load and pacing on relatively uncomplicated terrain but those aren't very demanding uses for a power meter. You can actually do those things pretty well without a power meter. The things I listed above do require high data quality, and you can't do them with just a HRM or a speedometer and a wristwatch. I don't know what the OP's budget or needs are, but power meters are pretty expensive so it seems a waste to only use them for things that you can replicate with a HRM, wristwatch, and speedometer. Even if you don't need to do those other things now, it could be good to know you could do them in the future.
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I don't really see it as much of an issue if it calls 1000 watts 800 as long as it will do it repeatedly and read higher with a higher input. For interval training I am interested in the readings relative to each other on the same meter. Whether or not I start with a truly accurate number is fairly irrelevant.
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Question on that: is the problem that it does not do well versus a 2 sided meter (and presumably reality), or that it does not record consistent readings?
I don't really see it as much of an issue if it calls 1000 watts 800 as long as it will do it repeatedly and read higher with a higher input. For interval training I am interested in the readings relative to each other on the same meter. Whether or not I start with a truly accurate number is fairly irrelevant.
I don't really see it as much of an issue if it calls 1000 watts 800 as long as it will do it repeatedly and read higher with a higher input. For interval training I am interested in the readings relative to each other on the same meter. Whether or not I start with a truly accurate number is fairly irrelevant.
BTW, recently on Slowtwitch and the Wattage List guys have asked about their power -- then it turns out they use the Stages. So even though they thought that consistency was the only thing that mattered, that the accuracy was irrelevant, in the end they still thought things were off. If consistency were all that mattered, a wristwatch and a speedometer and a regular training route give you very consistent measurements and they're much much cheaper. People argue that the Stages does 90% of what other PMs do but costs less -- but in that case they should also look at what does 90% of what the Stages does, and whether those alternatives cost less. A Garmin 500 and Strava do a large fraction of what the Stages and a Garmin 500 does.
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RChung, I think suggesting that a HRM, stopwatch and speedo will do better than a basic power meter is profoundly misleading.
I also think that your points, while containing a kernel of truth, arrive way off target. The criticism that Stages isn't suited to a sprinter is an example, if only because training the sprint (short duration/high effort)isn't the totality of how a sprinter needs to train. And that assumes I accept the notion that Stages' short duration/hi-power readings are, in fact, not very good, which I'm pretty sure I do not, at least not for anyone outside of an elite pro.
I'm not going to bother trying to argue with anyone about all this, and will simply leave this link to DCR on Stages: Stages Power Meter In-Depth Review Update | DC Rainmaker as a good reference for the type of planning, usage and data crunching it would take to make rubbish of a training regimen because Stages "doesn't do well" and offers no benefit over a stopwatch, HRM and speedo , or Strava, as RChung claims.
I also think that your points, while containing a kernel of truth, arrive way off target. The criticism that Stages isn't suited to a sprinter is an example, if only because training the sprint (short duration/high effort)isn't the totality of how a sprinter needs to train. And that assumes I accept the notion that Stages' short duration/hi-power readings are, in fact, not very good, which I'm pretty sure I do not, at least not for anyone outside of an elite pro.
I'm not going to bother trying to argue with anyone about all this, and will simply leave this link to DCR on Stages: Stages Power Meter In-Depth Review Update | DC Rainmaker as a good reference for the type of planning, usage and data crunching it would take to make rubbish of a training regimen because Stages "doesn't do well" and offers no benefit over a stopwatch, HRM and speedo , or Strava, as RChung claims.
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I'm not going to bother trying to argue with anyone about all this, and will simply leave this link to DCR on Stages: Stages Power Meter In-Depth Review Update | DC Rainmaker as a good reference for the type of planning, usage and data crunching it would take to make rubbish of a training regimen because Stages "doesn't do well" and offers no benefit over a stopwatch, HRM and speedo , or Strava, as RChung claims.
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I don't have any experience with the Stages, so I won't comment on that.
I will say I have a set of the Boyd Altamonts with the PowerTap hub and have been very happy, both with the wheelset in general and with the PowerTap. I also think it's an excellent value assuming you don't have multiple bikes you're wanting to use a single power meter with (and even if you are, the Vector S seems like a better idea than crank-based for that, IMHO).
I will say I have a set of the Boyd Altamonts with the PowerTap hub and have been very happy, both with the wheelset in general and with the PowerTap. I also think it's an excellent value assuming you don't have multiple bikes you're wanting to use a single power meter with (and even if you are, the Vector S seems like a better idea than crank-based for that, IMHO).
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I mentioned Tom Anhalt in the above post. He's another one of Ray Maker's brain trust. Here's a video of Tom doing a swap of Quarq cranks in, oh, about a minute.
As an aside, I (as many others do) use different crank lengths on my road and TT bike. I do that so I can get into a better position on my TT bike.
Last edited by RChung; 11-14-14 at 12:34 AM.
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RChung, I think suggesting that a HRM, stopwatch and speedo will do better than a basic power meter is profoundly misleading.
I also think that your points, while containing a kernel of truth, arrive way off target. The criticism that Stages isn't suited to a sprinter is an example, if only because training the sprint (short duration/high effort)isn't the totality of how a sprinter needs to train. And that assumes I accept the notion that Stages' short duration/hi-power readings are, in fact, not very good, which I'm pretty sure I do not, at least not for anyone outside of an elite pro.
I'm not going to bother trying to argue with anyone about all this, and will simply leave this link to DCR on Stages: Stages Power Meter In-Depth Review Update | DC Rainmaker as a good reference for the type of planning, usage and data crunching it would take to make rubbish of a training regimen because Stages "doesn't do well" and offers no benefit over a stopwatch, HRM and speedo , or Strava, as RChung claims.
I also think that your points, while containing a kernel of truth, arrive way off target. The criticism that Stages isn't suited to a sprinter is an example, if only because training the sprint (short duration/high effort)isn't the totality of how a sprinter needs to train. And that assumes I accept the notion that Stages' short duration/hi-power readings are, in fact, not very good, which I'm pretty sure I do not, at least not for anyone outside of an elite pro.
I'm not going to bother trying to argue with anyone about all this, and will simply leave this link to DCR on Stages: Stages Power Meter In-Depth Review Update | DC Rainmaker as a good reference for the type of planning, usage and data crunching it would take to make rubbish of a training regimen because Stages "doesn't do well" and offers no benefit over a stopwatch, HRM and speedo , or Strava, as RChung claims.
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Snicker snicker? How old are you?
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I have a stages on one bike and quarq on the another. I like them both. I can swap out wheels and pedals.
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Well, there are two problems as far as I've been able to tell. One piece of it is that the Stages uses an accelerometer for measuring cadence rather than a reed switch. That's a double-edged sword: you don't need a magnet but it turns out that in order to avoid false readings on bumpy roads they had to "de-tune" the cadence algorithm to make it less sensitive. That introduced some lag when you first jump. I think a second piece is that sometimes when sprinting you start with your left foot and sometimes with your right. So with those two things together I've seen more variation in power for short duration high power with the Stages than with the Vectors or the Quarq or the PT (ironically, a priori I expected to see the most variation in the PT but that wasn't so). So, no, it's not consistent. But if you don't intend to use it for training for sprints, maybe this won't matter.
BTW, recently on Slowtwitch and the Wattage List guys have asked about their power -- then it turns out they use the Stages. So even though they thought that consistency was the only thing that mattered, that the accuracy was irrelevant, in the end they still thought things were off. If consistency were all that mattered, a wristwatch and a speedometer and a regular training route give you very consistent measurements and they're much much cheaper. People argue that the Stages does 90% of what other PMs do but costs less -- but in that case they should also look at what does 90% of what the Stages does, and whether those alternatives cost less. A Garmin 500 and Strava do a large fraction of what the Stages and a Garmin 500 does.
BTW, recently on Slowtwitch and the Wattage List guys have asked about their power -- then it turns out they use the Stages. So even though they thought that consistency was the only thing that mattered, that the accuracy was irrelevant, in the end they still thought things were off. If consistency were all that mattered, a wristwatch and a speedometer and a regular training route give you very consistent measurements and they're much much cheaper. People argue that the Stages does 90% of what other PMs do but costs less -- but in that case they should also look at what does 90% of what the Stages does, and whether those alternatives cost less. A Garmin 500 and Strava do a large fraction of what the Stages and a Garmin 500 does.
On your tri forum, are saying the Stages makes it tough on guys comparing ewang?
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Which is precisely my point; as I said before, the so-called deficiencies of the Stages meter do not negatively impact the training efficacy of the majority of athletes. If I'm misunderstanding the importance of accuracy/granularity to the training of the typical weekend warrior, and misunderstanding how a stopwatch, HRM and speedo are more helpful to that training, I'd love for RChung to explain that to me.
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Excellent, thanks for linking to that review. Glad you like it. I did the original analysis for Ray Maker that revealed the problem with the Stages, and then checked the update. Stages held back release and then "de-tuned" the cadence because I spotted the problem -- but the fix introduced this newer issue that I've mentioned. If you read and follow Ray's reviews you know that he hates to do the analysis for power meters so he asks a few of us to do that for him. Tom Anhalt and I developed the protocols that Ray uses to collect the data, and Tom, Dan Connelly, and I help him do the analysis. Here's a plot from Ray's review of the Garmin Vector. That review was done a few months after the update you linked to, so perhaps you didn't read it.
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Which is precisely my point; as I said before, the so-called deficiencies of the Stages meter do not negatively impact the training efficacy of the majority of athletes. If I'm misunderstanding the importance of accuracy/granularity to the training of the typical weekend warrior, and misunderstanding how a stopwatch, HRM and speedo are more helpful to that training, I'd love for RChung to explain that to me.
I do enjoy the discussion on this though....