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Question about trickle down...

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Question about trickle down...

Old 11-13-14, 06:29 PM
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Question about trickle down...

I just bought a cyclocross bike. Since I'm enormously tall, it was special order only so I did not get to ride it before purchase. It will be my bad weather bike/light duty trail or bike path bike. Given that, I got a lower end bike than I normally do. I usually get top of the line or one step down. I went with Shimano 105 on this bike.

My road bike has Dura Ace 9000 (11spd) on it and I didn't want to abuse expensive parts, so I went with something where parts would be cheap to replace. I asked the salesman if, coming from Dura Ace, the shift quality would bother me. He said "not at all, Shimano 105 is great, with the trickle down you're getting Ultegra from 2 years ago with current 105. They don't redesign anything at all, you just get the higher end stuff a few years later". Well, Ultegra from 2 years ago was 10 speed and this is 11 speed. Also, the shift levers on Ultegra 6700 were carbon, and 105 5800 levers are not carbon, so they had to have redesigned SOMETHING.

What exactly am I getting?
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Old 11-13-14, 06:44 PM
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New Shimano 105 groupset - 5800 series
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Old 11-13-14, 06:50 PM
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6800 has been out for 2 years at this point, right?
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Old 11-13-14, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Alias530 View Post
I just bought a cyclocross bike. Since I'm enormously tall, it was special order only so I did not get to ride it before purchase. It will be my bad weather bike/light duty trail or bike path bike. Given that, I got a lower end bike than I normally do. I usually get top of the line or one step down. I went with Shimano 105 on this bike.

My road bike has Dura Ace 9000 (11spd) on it and I didn't want to abuse expensive parts, so I went with something where parts would be cheap to replace. I asked the salesman if, coming from Dura Ace, the shift quality would bother me. He said "not at all, Shimano 105 is great, with the trickle down you're getting Ultegra from 2 years ago with current 105. They don't redesign anything at all, you just get the higher end stuff a few years later". Well, Ultegra from 2 years ago was 10 speed and this is 11 speed. Also, the shift levers on Ultegra 6700 were carbon, and 105 5800 levers are not carbon, so they had to have redesigned SOMETHING.

What exactly am I getting?
Wrong. The current 105 5800 are near identical to 6800 Ultegra, both are 11 speed. The 105 5700 is a combination of Ultegra 6700 and Dura Ace. The hood shape and internal cabling was from Dura-Ace at the time. But the derailleurs and braking system was from Ultegra. The crank well, Shimano didn't update it. But for 5800? It's a 6800 Ultegra crank.

They didn't redesign. REDESIGN. You're talking about materials. The big difference between Dura Ace and Ultegra is not design, it's materials and weight. Same for SRAM Red and SRAM Rival, the big difference isn't design, it's materials and weight.

DESIGN vs materials, two different things.

If you're used to Dura Ace and can afford it, then buy it.
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Old 11-13-14, 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by zymphad View Post
Wrong. The current 105 5800 are near identical to 6800 Ultegra, both are 11 speed. The 105 5700 is a combination of Ultegra 6700 and Dura Ace. The hood shape and internal cabling was from Dura-Ace at the time. But the derailleurs and braking system was from Ultegra. The crank well, Shimano didn't update it. But for 5800? It's a 6800 Ultegra crank.

They didn't redesign. REDESIGN. You're talking about materials. The big difference between Dura Ace and Ultegra is not design, it's materials and weight. Same for SRAM Red and SRAM Rival, the big difference isn't design, it's materials and weight.

DESIGN vs materials, two different things.

If you're used to Dura Ace and can afford it, then buy it.
Well, "afford" is more of a personal definition than actually having the cash to do it. I'll gladly pay for performance, but the consumable aspects of Dura Ace ($200 cassette, $200 chainrings, etc) lasting less long by involving dirt and grit are harder to stomach than on a road bike that doesn't see that kind of abuse.

Most of the reason I'm buying this bike is so I don't feel as guilty subjecting my high end road bike to the elements. 105 cassettes are about $30 and the Dura Ace are nearly 7x that much. I just want to know if 105 is going to feel terrible by comparison.

I was also saying that Shimano HAD to have changed SOMETHING from Ultegra because two years ago Ultegra was 10 speed and had carbon parts, neither of which are found on 105 of today. I guess we are in the 2015 model year and Ultegra 6800 came out in 2013 so you could ignore the 11spd vs 10spd part of my comment but still, no carbon shift levers on 105 so SOMETHING is different. Even 6700 had carbon shift levers.

Last edited by Alias530; 11-13-14 at 07:54 PM.
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Old 11-13-14, 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Alias530 View Post
I just want to know if 105 is going to feel terrible by comparison.
No, it won't. Slightly different...but not 'terrible'

Originally Posted by Alias530 View Post
I was also saying that Shimano HAD to have changed SOMETHING from Ultegra because two years ago Ultegra was 10 speed and had carbon parts, neither of which are found on 105 of today. I guess we are in the 2015 model year and Ultegra 6800 came out in 2013 so you could ignore the 11spd vs 10spd part of my comment but still, no carbon shift levers on 105 so SOMETHING is different. Even 6700 had carbon shift levers.
Yeah, that's the materials (and weight) as he said. 5700 is very similar to 6700 but with alloy levers rather than composite/carbon. Same for 5800/6800. So the 105 versions feature a touch cheaper materials, weigh a hair more, but are very similar design and function. Perfect for your stated purpose IMO.
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Old 11-13-14, 10:36 PM
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In my opinion anything 105 level or higher (or slx for mtb) is fine. Go higher you get lighter and prettier, but the function isn't that much better. Perhaps a bit more adjustability etc. Look at xt vs xtr. many buy xt over xtr simply because its almost as pretty, a bit heavier, but just as functional and half the price.
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Old 11-13-14, 10:38 PM
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Usually the Dura Ace update comes out first, then Ultegra comes out utilizing some of the lessons they learned from Dura Ace. Then after that 105 comes out with some things learned from both Dura Ace and Ultegra, so it could be argued that you're getting a lot of the technical advancement but with a weight penalty.

105 works pretty darn good. I have 6 year old 5600 series 105 on my "rain bike" and it still is working fine, maybe only changed the shift cables and housing once in the interim, and of course gone through a few chains. I have Ultegra and Red on other road bikes, but I never complain or wish I had a higher level group set on my rain bike.
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Old 11-14-14, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by milkbaby View Post
Usually the Dura Ace update comes out first, then Ultegra comes out utilizing some of the lessons they learned from Dura Ace. Then after that 105 comes out with some things learned from both Dura Ace and Ultegra, so it could be argued that you're getting a lot of the technical advancement but with a weight penalty.

105 works pretty darn good. I have 6 year old 5600 series 105 on my "rain bike" and it still is working fine, maybe only changed the shift cables and housing once in the interim, and of course gone through a few chains. I have Ultegra and Red on other road bikes, but I never complain or wish I had a higher level group set on my rain bike.
Good news, thanks guys
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Old 11-14-14, 04:14 PM
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you know, you can put cheaper consumeables with the high end groups. I ride enough that I buy ultegra cassettes six at a time at end of season clearance for my dura ace and sram red bikes. same with chains, i buy kmc second tier chains. i ride enough that it's worth it to save on the stuff that gets thrown out relatively often but doesn't impact other aspects of riding i.e. tires.
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Old 11-14-14, 04:17 PM
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I have a Tiagra 10 sp cassette and a gold kmc chain on my bike with Sram red lol. Works well.
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Old 11-14-14, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by pdedes View Post
you know, you can put cheaper consumeables with the high end groups. I ride enough that I buy ultegra cassettes six at a time at end of season clearance for my dura ace and sram red bikes. same with chains, i buy kmc second tier chains. i ride enough that it's worth it to save on the stuff that gets thrown out relatively often but doesn't impact other aspects of riding i.e. tires.
If I was building a new bike, that's not a bad idea. Build it with Ultegra 6800 Shifter, rear derailleur and crank but use Shimano 105 5800 cassette, chain, BB, brakes and front derailleur. I'll probably do this.
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Old 11-14-14, 10:00 PM
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I've got Dura Ace including Di2 on my road bikes. But I went with Tiagra on my CX. The CX is used on winter roads, occasional trails, and some light off road. It works fine. I just want something I can abuse and not worry because when I'm finish I just want to get in the shower.
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Old 11-14-14, 10:03 PM
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I'm running Sram x9 and 105 deraillers but I use a basic 11-34 9 speed cassette and $20 chain. Used to be able to get them xt spec but now they are down below Deore at Acera level. Don't really care as weight isn't an issue and they wear out often enough spending more on higher spec isn't worth it.
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Old 11-15-14, 06:21 AM
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Ultegra chains work well with Dura Ace groupsets, right?
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Old 11-15-14, 06:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Garfield Cat View Post
Ultegra chains work well with Dura Ace groupsets, right?
Yes as long as you match 10sp with 10sp, 11 with 11, etc.
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