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My frame is in pieces...

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My frame is in pieces...

Old 12-16-14, 04:23 AM
  #76  
Campag4life
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Originally Posted by Fiery View Post
Two counter questions: how many of the big-brand monocoque manufacturers employ the absolute state of the art modelling, prototyping, minute performance analysis and testing, and how many of their models actually see all the results of this development process?

Let's compare apples to apples, unless you want to argue China direct open mould monocoque frames are the same as the much lauded Specialized ones.
First question, every singe one.
Second question, it doesn't matter if the bike is made in China or on Mars. Where a frame is manufactured is irrelevant. Process integrity matters for durability and performance is based upon the design of the frame. Bikes are often designed in one place and made in another...in fact most are. What separates the good guys is they scrutinize the manufacturing process to the Nth degree by sending their engineers to the manufacturing facility to ensure the process control plan is adhered to.

Last edited by Campag4life; 12-16-14 at 04:36 AM.
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Old 12-16-14, 04:34 AM
  #77  
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Originally Posted by tony2v View Post
I own a custom carbon tube/glue/wrapped Alchemy Xanthus. It was custom fitted and tuned to my riding style. You guys need to get out more often like to NABHS.
Alchemy Bicycle Co. - Home - Alchemy Bicycle Company
Have any more pics of your bike? Can you describe the fitting process and how you requested your performance targets?
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Old 12-16-14, 06:47 AM
  #78  
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Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
First question, every singe one.
Second question, it doesn't matter if the bike is made in China or on Mars. Where a frame is manufactured is irrelevant. Process integrity matters for durability and performance is based upon the design of the frame. Bikes are often designed in one place and made in another...in fact most are. What separates the good guys is they scrutinize the manufacturing process to the Nth degree by sending their engineers to the manufacturing facility to ensure the process control plan is adhered to.
It seems you haven't really followed the conversation before joining it, I'm not talking about safety and structural integrity of the frame, but about its performance. It's also evident you didn't understand what my questions were - I asked about the differences between manufacturers, and differences between various tiers of the same basic design.

The response, as you provided it, is simply false. The engineering and testing that goes into a DengFu FM098 is simply nowhere near what goes into a Specialized S-Works Venge. Regarding performance only, the amount of fine tuning and optimization that goes into a Specialized Venge Pro is still lower than what goes into the S-Works version.

Or are you still willing to claim that there is no difference between a top-of-the-line big-brand frame and a no-name open mould one (to use the extremes), as long as they're both monocoque?

Last edited by Fiery; 12-16-14 at 07:03 AM.
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Old 12-16-14, 06:56 AM
  #79  
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Originally Posted by Fiery View Post
It seems you haven't really followed the conversation before joining it, I'm not talking about safety and structural integrity of the frame, but about its performance. Even so, what you are saying is simply false. The engineering and testing that goes into a DengFu FM098 is simply nowhere near what goes into a Specialized S-Works Venge. Regarding performance only, the amount of fine tuning and optimization that goes into a Specialized Venge Pro is still lower than what goes into the S-Works version. It's not about where it is made, or by whom, it's about the standard to which it is made.

Or are you still willing to claim that there is no difference between a top-of-the-line big-brand frame and a no-name open mould one, as long as they're both monocoque?
You are either smoking something strong or we are talking past one another. Not worth it to figure out why..lol.
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Old 12-16-14, 07:03 AM
  #80  
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Originally Posted by Fiery View Post
It seems you haven't really followed the conversation before joining it, I'm not talking about safety and structural integrity of the frame, but about its performance. Even so, what you are saying is simply false. The engineering and testing that goes into a DengFu FM098 is simply nowhere near what goes into a Specialized S-Works Venge.
The no-name brands copy existing bikes (which means some of the same engineering goes in) and some of the no-name bikes are made by the same factories that make the brand bikes (which means they learn how to build frames from building the brand bikes). And, I believe some use plugs from retired lines of brand name bikes. That is, even though these manufacturers are not doing their one research, there is technology transfer going on.

Originally Posted by Fiery View Post
Regarding performance only, the amount of fine tuning and optimization that goes into a Specialized Venge Pro is still lower than what goes into the S-Works version. It's not about where it is made, or by whom, it's about the standard to which it is made.
Current lower-end carbon bikes might be much better than top-end carbon bikes from 10 years ago.

What companies learn in designing top-end bikes can inform how they design lower-end bikes.

Originally Posted by Fiery View Post
Or are you still willing to claim that there is no difference between a top-of-the-line big-brand frame and a no-name open mould one, as long as they're both monocoque?
???

Who made this claim?

Last edited by njkayaker; 12-17-14 at 05:58 AM.
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Old 12-16-14, 07:07 AM
  #81  
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Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
You are either smoking something strong or we are talking past one another. Not worth it to figure out why..lol.
Yep, you seem to be unwilling to read for comprehension before responding. I know the feeling, it's hard to stop and think before launching into a new monologue that will show the other guy how wrong he is. "LOL."
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Old 12-16-14, 07:19 AM
  #82  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
Current lower-end carbon bikes might be much better than top-end carbon bikes from 10 years ago.


What companies learn in designing top-end bikes can inform how they design lower-end bikes.


???

Who made this claim?
Please try to follow before joining the conversation.

1. rpenmanparker claims custom builders can't fine tune the tubes because they use only pre-made third party tubesets
2. I point out some builders make their own tubes.
3. rpenmanparker asks how many builders acually do this.
4. I propose that is irrelevant, because we should be comparing apples to apples, and not every monocoque frame is made to the same level either.
5. Campag4life barges in effectively claiming all big manufacturers produce everything to the same level.
6. We come to the post that you quoted - I believe Campag4life misunderstood me, I provide a couple of counterexamples and I ask if he still disagrees (as disagreeing would amount to claiming that all monocoque frames are the same; see 4.).

If my detailed explanation was annoying, so was the repeated quoting and responding to me out of context.

Last edited by Fiery; 12-16-14 at 07:24 AM.
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Old 12-16-14, 08:44 AM
  #83  
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Originally Posted by Fiery View Post
Please try to follow before joining the conversation.

1. rpenmanparker claims custom builders can't fine tune the tubes because they use only pre-made third party tubesets
2. I point out some builders make their own tubes.
3. rpenmanparker asks how many builders acually do this.
4. I propose that is irrelevant, because we should be comparing apples to apples, and not every monocoque frame is made to the same level either.
5. Campag4life barges in effectively claiming all big manufacturers produce everything to the same level.
6. We come to the post that you quoted - I believe Campag4life misunderstood me, I provide a couple of counterexamples and I ask if he still disagrees (as disagreeing would amount to claiming that all monocoque frames are the same; see 4.).

If my detailed explanation was annoying, so was the repeated quoting and responding to me out of context.
It is not irrelevant that few custom CF bike builders make their own tubes if that means most custom CF bikes won't benefit from this. Also making one's own stock tubes and custom molding tubes for a specific bicycle and rider requirement are two very different things. Custom building tubes for each bike made would be horrendously expensive I would think. And what level of complexity could be incorporated in such a tube? It might be a little thinner or thicker, lighter or heavier, even stiffer or more flexible. But it will still be a round tube. And I would be more concerned about a builder molding one-off tubes than using a standard round product purchased from a respected supplier like ENVE. Once again trying to tailor a one-off CF layup to a specific rider using all the available tensile strength, stiffness, and impact resistance variations available in pre-preg, even in just a round tube, seems like by guess and by golly to me. Without any trial and error process underpinned by detailed testing, i.e. reiterative fine tuning, why would I think the builder would get everything right? The strength, integrity, stiffness in multiple directions, compliance, comfort, etc., etc. I wouldn't have any confidence in it.
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Old 12-16-14, 09:14 AM
  #84  
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The point stands that it is possible to have far more influence over the qualities of a custom tube-to-tube bike than your initial posts implied. I'm not really interested in discussing the merits od the process, but I will say that both you and Campag4life make interesting points.

I do have to say that I find it amusing how quick you are to laud the ability to change the way a composite frame reacts to directional forces by changing the layout of the fibers, compared to a hydroformed metal frame, yet how readily you dismiss custom produced carbon fiber tubes because they have a round shape.
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Old 12-16-14, 09:37 AM
  #85  
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Originally Posted by Fiery View Post
The point stands that it is possible to have far more influence over the qualities of a custom tube-to-tube bike than your initial posts implied. I'm not really interested in discussing the merits od the process, but I will say that both you and Campag4life make interesting points.

I do have to say that I find it amusing how quick you are to laud the ability to change the way a composite frame reacts to directional forces by changing the layout of the fibers, compared to a hydroformed metal frame, yet how readily you dismiss custom produced carbon fiber tubes because they have a round shape.
I don't dismiss them absolutely. I dismiss them relative to more complex tube shapes which, when required, offer a significantly higher level of ride tuning. In physical and chemical processes success is very often dependent upon how many knobs you have to turn. Ask any process engineer what frustrates them in a control room, and they will tell you trying to turn a knob and finding it maxed out. Like pedal-to-the metal and all that. You need more response, but that knob just doesn't have any more to give. Or turning that one knob gives some response, but it also does things you don't like. Same here. The more knobs you have to turn, the better your chance of success. And the more moderately you can adjust each factor, the less extreme any one adjustment is, the better the result will likely be. No material that we know of today offers more "knobs" to adjust than CF does to fine tune the ride of a bike. When you abandon monocoque construction, you discard several of those adjustment modes and end up not much better than with old-time, round metal tubing.
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Old 12-16-14, 09:40 AM
  #86  
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Originally Posted by Fiery View Post
4. I propose that is irrelevant, because we should be comparing apples to apples, and not every monocoque frame is made to the same level either.
You aren't talking about "apples to apple" with bringing up no-name frames. Comparing a custom frame to a no-name frame is silly.

Originally Posted by Fiery View Post
I do have to say that I find it amusing how quick you are to laud the ability to change the way a composite frame reacts to directional forces by changing the layout of the fibers, compared to a hydroformed metal frame, yet how readily you dismiss custom produced carbon fiber tubes because they have a round shape.
Another apples to oranges comparision.

Originally Posted by Fiery View Post
If my detailed explanation was annoying, so was the repeated quoting and responding to me out of context.


Originally Posted by Fiery View Post
Or are you still willing to claim that there is no difference between a top-of-the-line big-brand frame and a no-name open mould one, as long as they're both monocoque?
???

You are making this up. No one has made any such claim.

Last edited by njkayaker; 12-16-14 at 09:48 AM.
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Old 12-16-14, 09:50 AM
  #87  
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Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
I don't dismiss them absolutely. I dismiss them relative to more complex tube shapes which, when required, offer a significantly higher level of ride tuning. In physical and chemical processes success is very often dependent upon how many knobs you have to turn. Ask any process engineer what frustrates them in a control room, and they will tell you trying to turn a knob and finding it maxed out. Like pedal-to-the metal and all that. You need more response, but that knob just doesn't have any more to give. Or turning that one knob gives some response, but it also does things you don't like. Same here. The more knobs you have to turn, the better your chance of success. And the more moderately you can adjust each factor, the less extreme any one adjustment is, the better the result will likely be. No material that we know of today offers more "knobs" to adjust than CF does to fine tune the ride of a bike. When you abandon monocoque construction, you discard several of those adjustment modes and end up not much better than with old-time, round metal tubing.
Even if the custom builder could get the same performance, it would likely still cost more than a production bike (ignoring the odd crazy-expensive ones). The issue isn't just performance. It's also how much it costs.
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Old 12-16-14, 09:56 AM
  #88  
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Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
A good post and counterpoint...but with one elephant in the room...in bold above. It may or may not ride exactly how you want for two principle reasons:
a. ride is subjective and specific to ride weight and perception. (no test rides or do overs)
b. based upon discussion with the builder, the bike is built to a 'qualitative' target in terms of ride quality. The builder may miss this qualitative and not quantitative target for two reason:
1. he and the buyer many not have the same target for medium versus stiff ride quality target. It is a perceived or virtual target and not a concrete or quantifiable one.
2. a custom builder can't predict how a one off custom geometry will ride because the relationship between geometry and tube selection is too complex to predict this without building prototypes of a given geometry. As discussed even the smartest guys...teams of engineers miss the mark with much greater technical resources.

So, there is a lot of room to get it wrong.
Custom stuff, is a nice pipe dream however. Btw, I am the ultimate custom guy. I do build my bikes frameset up..personalize gearing...every component picked for its design qualities, I build my own computers because store computers are crap, and have been building custom cars and motorcycles since I was small and my career has been centered in product development. I create products for a living. Custom is something the average guy has no clue about...what the level of due diligence is to create something better than a production item. Its much easier to get custom wrong than right.
IMO frame building, while it certainly requires skill and experience, is not rocket science. Its a bicycle. In my experience it pretty hard to make a woefully unridable bike. Most skilled builders with a decent reputation will far exceed "good enough". I don't doubt that the high tech industry can produce a lighter, more exact design, but like high end audio and many other fields, you start seeing diminishing returns as to continue to improve beyond "good enough". I've ridden 90s-era steel frames that were a dream. To many people, how the frame looks or a particular style may be more important than fine tuning ride characteristics ultimate light weight, etc. Some people go for specific rack mounts or light mounts, internally routed cables, and other options they cant find all in one frame.

Yes, a custom bike may not fit exactly right, or might not hit the ride quality target the buyer was going for. The same can be said for off the shelf too. A quick ride around the parking lot is often not enough to figure all of that out, and I've certainly seen plenty of riders on ill-fitted mass produced bikes. There is a certain amount of risk going custom, for sure, but complete failure is very rare. I've never met a person with a custom bike that was unhappy with it. Maybe they are blissfully ignorant of how much better they could have done for the money. There are worse things, I guess.

Last edited by pallen; 12-16-14 at 10:03 AM.
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Old 12-16-14, 12:59 PM
  #89  
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Here's an idea...

You guys go start your own thread about the pros/cons of a custom (esp. carbon) frame and discuss how much a custom carbon frame will suck/be dangerous because it wasn't designed and laid up on Trek/Specialized/Giant's workstations, and let the rest of us follow BSY's build.

You know, the way this thread was supposed to go.
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Old 12-16-14, 01:11 PM
  #90  
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Originally Posted by kv501 View Post
Here's an idea...

You guys go start your own thread about the pros/cons of a custom (esp. carbon) frame and discuss how much a custom carbon frame will suck/be dangerous because it wasn't designed and laid up on Trek/Specialized/Giant's workstations, and let the rest of us follow BSY's build.

You know, the way this thread was supposed to go.
i like that idea, but this thread can go on like it is. When the build actually starts, I'll just start a different thread.
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Old 12-16-14, 01:22 PM
  #91  
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Originally Posted by pallen View Post
IMO frame building, while it certainly requires skill and experience, is not rocket science. Its a bicycle. In my experience it pretty hard to make a woefully unridable bike. Most skilled builders with a decent reputation will far exceed "good enough". I don't doubt that the high tech industry can produce a lighter, more exact design, but like high end audio and many other fields, you start seeing diminishing returns as to continue to improve beyond "good enough". I've ridden 90s-era steel frames that were a dream. To many people, how the frame looks or a particular style may be more important than fine tuning ride characteristics ultimate light weight, etc. Some people go for specific rack mounts or light mounts, internally routed cables, and other options they cant find all in one frame.

Yes, a custom bike may not fit exactly right, or might not hit the ride quality target the buyer was going for. The same can be said for off the shelf too. A quick ride around the parking lot is often not enough to figure all of that out, and I've certainly seen plenty of riders on ill-fitted mass produced bikes. There is a certain amount of risk going custom, for sure, but complete failure is very rare. I've never met a person with a custom bike that was unhappy with it. Maybe they are blissfully ignorant of how much better they could have done for the money. There are worse things, I guess.
It seems to me that your standards are a bit relaxed. How would you feel if the builder handed you a contract that contained the disclaimers that I have bolded above as you were signing the check to him? Would you go ahead with the order?
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Old 12-16-14, 01:33 PM
  #92  
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Ha! Camp, rep and the rest did their usual thread trash, but wow, they get extra credit for post length on this one. There are about three useless pamphlets worth ofan, they somehow squeezed in GM and the NHTSA. With eight and nine thousand posts, and posts that appear to be just time wasters, I swear they must be shut ins.
I will drop this snooze fest BoSox and pic up on your build thread, looking forward to it.
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Old 12-16-14, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by kv501 View Post
Here's an idea...

You guys go start your own thread about the pros/cons of a custom (esp. carbon) frame and discuss how much a custom carbon frame will suck/be dangerous because it wasn't designed and laid up on Trek/Specialized/Giant's workstations, and let the rest of us follow BSY's build.

You know, the way this thread was supposed to go.
You mean where everybody slaps BSY on the back and tells him what a cracking great bike he is going to get despite not having the least idea how it will turn out. And we all keep any concerns to ourselves. Like a movie scene in an Irish pub. Yes, we could all do that, but it would be completely disingenuous. You don't need a forum for that. Folks come here to share what they know (or at least in good conscience think they know). I haven't seen one example of ill will on the side of the folks who were doing their best to educate BSY about the possible pitfalls of his plan. All of the peckishness appears to be coming from folks who just don't want to know about it. These threads always remind me of Jack Nicholson's outburst in "A Few Good Men": "You can't handle the truth!" It is a shame he was on the wrong side there, or we naysayers could all identify with him.
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Old 12-16-14, 02:44 PM
  #94  
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Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
Have any more pics of your bike? Can you describe the fitting process and how you requested your performance targets?
I worked with my fitter about sizing. Turned out I didn't need custom geometry that their stock 56cm (it's now different than when I ordered in Jan 2013) would fit me. The only change I asked for was a 6 degree slope on the top tube. The custom order questionnaire was filled out detailing riding style,stiffness desired, handling, climb style, masher vs spinning and etc. Also I wrote an essay about the bikes I've owned/ridden and what I liked/disliked about them. After submitting the questionnaire the builder called me and we discussed the points. I used my Moots Compact as a reference point, but also told him about how much I liked my Van Dessel Drag Strip Courage track bike's quickness.


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Old 12-16-14, 03:07 PM
  #95  
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Originally Posted by bt View Post
pretty sure bsy is a guy
I'm definitely a guy, but unsure why you think the other poster might think otherwise. I never got the feeling anyone here thought I was female.
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Old 12-16-14, 03:32 PM
  #96  
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I think you will be getting a sweet frame/bike. Let us know how it rides when you do get a chance to ride it.
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Old 12-16-14, 03:33 PM
  #97  
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Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
You mean where everybody slaps BSY on the back and tells him what a cracking great bike he is going to get despite not having the least idea how it will turn out. And we all keep any concerns to ourselves. Like a movie scene in an Irish pub. Yes, we could all do that, but it would be completely disingenuous. You don't need a forum for that. Folks come here to share what they know (or at least in good conscience think they know). I haven't seen one example of ill will on the side of the folks who were doing their best to educate BSY about the possible pitfalls of his plan. All of the peckishness appears to be coming from folks who just don't want to know about it. These threads always remind me of Jack Nicholson's outburst in "A Few Good Men": "You can't handle the truth!" It is a shame he was on the wrong side there, or we naysayers could all identify with him.
I have no problem with hearing the opinions of others, and definitely appreciate all of your posts in this thread. I also have no problem with Campag4life's comments on the superiority of monocoque construction. He is correct.

What makes me laugh is Campag's belief that there's no need for a custom frame. I've been in the industry for many decades, and I know many custom builders and a few owners of well established companies. Bob Parlee loaned me his personal bike(Z1 custom frame)for a few days, and Marcus Storck has loaned me a few of his 63cm offerings(Fascenario). Both bikes were very nice, but both Bob and Marcus agreed that I was one of those guys that would be better suited with a build that was a little different. Bob's Z1 was close, but the Storck Fascenario was about 15mm too long, and the headtube was too long.

Old Italian bikes from the 80s fit me very well, but I haven't seen any monocoque bikes that offer the same style of geometry.
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Old 12-16-14, 03:59 PM
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BSY, I'm gonna be serious and honest. This frame is gonna suck big time.

Send it to me, I will save you some embarrassment.
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Old 12-16-14, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by bt View Post
BSY, I'm gonna be serious and honest. This frame is gonna suck big time.

Send it to me, I will save you some embarrassment.
The builder made me agree to not sell the frame, but he never said anything about giving it away.
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Old 12-16-14, 04:19 PM
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In an effort to make this a learning experience, I recommend you pay for shipping as well.
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