It sounds like you need a pedal/cleat with more float, and half-size bigger shoes. I've never had toe numbness problems, and any knee problems I've had I've fixed by changing my cleat position.


I grew up riding with clips and runners. Then I graduated to clips with real cycling shoes. And then eventually to Look Arc pedals. I've used SPDs, and currently Keos. I'm familiar and comfortable with pretty much all pedal systems (I didn't like eggbeaters, but might if I rode off-road more). I wouldn't use clipless for commuting, unless my commute was over 5 miles or so. But when I do ride on my SS with platforms, if I get up to any kind of speed (which I rarely do) I find my rear foot coming away a bit. On any kind of incline, I definitely get separation. So I'm fine on platforms on any situation, except steep climbs and 100+rpm fast riding. Which are the things I like to do when riding. So I ride clipless.


I can't imagine having to tighten toe straps on the go on a fixie. That's just creating problems for yourself.

I was on a brevet once and getting a little tired. Only maybe 50 miles to go. I came up on a small group and fell in last wheel to rest for a while. After a couple of small rollers I could sense that something was very wrong with the pacing, so I went up to the front and the lead rider was a kid riding fixed with knickers and platforms. I was gone out of there. I later heard that he'd walked the last hills. Good idea, I guess.

Whenever I've gone down with clipless, I've come completely free of the bike unless it was just an easy slide. I was commuting with toe clips on that Legnano on a street where the right lane went right up to the curb. I got brushed by a mirror, went into the curb, over the bars, and fetched up head first into a phone pole. When I came to, I was still in my clips. So I guess that's what happened to me . . .

I dont like those guys.

If platform pedals worked so well for you, then why are you riding clipless?

I watched that video few months ago. But hasn't affected my preference to use clip-in pedals.

It enhances my riding experience. I really like pedaling with a stiff carbon sole, I feel I get more leverage and power with them when I'm standing, on hills and accelerating. I do solo rides but I do all of those. I like to get out of the seat and accelerate when I resume after stopping at a busy intersection. Hills here and there.

But I also like the convenience of being attached to the pedals. I've found I spend considerable amount of time fidgeting on flat pedals. I spend a lot of time when I'm using sneakers moving my feet around on the pedal, and to me spend too much focus on trying to keep my feet in place.

I don't necessarily pull up on my pedals, except when accelerating or climbing, but I like that I don't have to worry about keeping my foot in place on the upstroke. My feet is attached. I'm much more relaxed when I pedal, it's worry free.

That's my experience as a hobby solo cyclist. It's just more fun.

If you've ever had your foot slip off of a platform pedal and had it whack you in the back of the leg leaving a ping-pong ball sized lump that took 6 months to go away, this thread would never see the light of day...

i think I need better pedals. That would be over 2000W for most cyclists.

It's winter, where everything is subject to debate. Even those things long considered to be settled. :D

Agreed. Zombie Thought Processes!

I prefer the feel of clipless, but that doesn't mean I think it's perfect in every way. In my experience, there is no need to force the foot into some predetermined proper position, it can find its own way - and the ideal position might actually change slightly during the course of a ride, depending on the conditions at the moments. With platforms you can make slight adjustments, while with clipless you need to find a compromise.


I have enough float, but finding the perfect cleat position and angle was far more difficult than just plopping my foot on the platform pedal and letting it find its own position. But when I said I liked the ability to change the foot position on platforms, I meant the fore-aft - and there is no clipless system that will provide this, no matter how much float it has. Regarding shoes, I do have shoes and insoles that fit very well, but it took some trial and error to find them, whereas I never had any problems with my feet on platforms, no matter what the shoes and without any special insoles. Again, I still prefer the feel of clipless, but platforms were, for me, far more forgiving when it comes to ergonomics.

I've wondered a bit about installing two SPD cleats on a shoe, one forward, and one in the middle of the shoe. Theoretically one should be able to do this. Then simply unclip from one cleat, and clip into the second cleat.

Most cyclists I know have strong calf muscles, but the calf muscles may play a minimal role in the pedal stroke, so there may be benefits of at least occasionally riding with a more central cleat. Of course, doing the change would also affect the saddle position somewhat.

I believed clipless was the way to go, just because that's what everyone says. But after a while I stopped using them. For my own personal reasons.

I'm a casual rider. I'm riding in mostly flat areas, at sea level. And I really hate that I can't walk much in my clipless shoes. I fear i'll be in a situation where i'm going to need to run, or walk far (after a break down) I also ride in areas with a lot of stoplights. I havent been able to find any good, affordable walkable shoes that are compatible with my pedals either.

Though when I'm going on a ride with some climbing, i'll use them.

Hills tend to ward them off.

Cool idea...

I tried to discuss something other than the traditional cleat placement method with my fitter, I brought up this article but apparently any idea that deviates from convention is heretical, nevertheless I'm quite curious because the body isn't as static as the typical limits imposed by fit geometry imply.

OP...I really like the safety of clipping in first and foremost. I don't like the idea of spinning at 100+ rpm, on a good downhill, and maybe hitting some roadchop, and suddenly a foot flies off a platform because of a rather light souplesse due to unweighting the dead leg.

One of the reasons I chose to go clipless after riding with toeclips for years is that I found my feet were tilting on the pedals, and I thought it was potentially bad for the legs. The cycling shoes and cleats give a good platform to pedal on, and keep the feet straight and secure.

Interesting paper. Get the full version

Here is also another interesting GCN short test about Should you climb in or out of the saddle, adjusting cadence appropriately. What they found is that the rider felt different for the two climbing conditions, but the actual HR, VO[SUB]2[/SUB] consumption, and Lactic Acid was about the same for the different conditions.

The results of both studies isn't surprising though, say you fix a submaximal effort of say 250W, then one would expect the body to use about the same amount of energy to achieve that 250W no matter the number of muscles used to achieve it. In fact, this may be a reason why EPO is so powerful, increase the oxygen, and one increases the total aerobic energy output.

What they aren't measuring is fatigue. Maintain that "60% effort" for 6 hours. And, then are the results the same for full stroke vs partial stroke conditions? What about the times one is at the calculated 100% of the aerobic/anaerobic threshold? Well into the anaerobic effort?

Personally I Mash. Good or bad... that is the way I ride.

It may be difficult to effectively pull up at 90 rpm (as in the study above). However, one can effectively do it at cadences below 50 rpm.

Certainly standing, one is running at essentially a point where one is putting in 100% of the possible downward force into the pedals. The only way to increase power while stranding is to utilize more of the pedal stroke, including pulling up.

Now, I don't pull up all the time, but even while sitting, when I want more power, I tell myself to pull up, and I get more power. Short efforts like starting from stops help to have both feet clipped in, although I'm not always the fastest off the starting block.

I'm not sure I could get up my driveway with the gearing on my bike with flats. The only way to effectively do it is to stand, and pull up. It may be better to install a"pie-plate", but I refuse to do that.

Have you tried the 2 bolt MTB style shoes/cleats? Yes, they will work on a road bike. I don't find them the most comfortable for walking, but certainly could walk, or perhaps even jog for a couple of miles in them.

I've never felt the need for a change in fore/aft position beyond fine-tuning. Tell you what, invent a pedal system that can allow such a thing and... well, you'll be as rich as the Softride guy. It really sounds like a very niche need, and the best suggestion I can give you is a pair of campus cleats or similar with MTB/touring shoes and just cycle on the back side of the pedal when you feel the need to move.

I've seen the mid-foot cleat-placement article before, and it sounds like it would be of most interest to triathletes or specialist TT riders, where constant steady power output is of the essence. Again, high cadence, or out-of-the-seat climbing situations (which is the kind of riding a lot of us like to do) would be better suited to having the soupplesse of the traditional forefoot position.

Like I said, it should be easy enough to put two cleats on. I picked up a pair of cheap shoes to tear up so I'll try some experimenting this year. It should be fun to try. Reach to the saddle may need some tinkering (which might be adjusted with cleat spacing from the bottom of the shoe, but a forward cleat position also effectively puts the saddle further backward).


Essentially ballerinas and bicyclists spend most of their time standing on their toes. The way I read a lot of the research about things like cleats vs clipless, standing vs sitting is that it doesn't make a big difference whether one is pushing or pulling as long as most of the effort goes into the pedals. But, if the calves are just supporting weight, perhaps they're taking energy that isn't needed.

I put my cleats pretty far forward, but I'm really thinking about moving them back.

That's why you use slotted cleats with toeclips.

To that I will add more control in low-RPM / high power situations like out of saddle climbing. It's nearly impossible to sustain a smooth long effort climbing in platforms

IB4 Nightshade explains that we are all gonna die.

Hmmm....

• On occasion, I miss the cleats and slip while engaging. Does that count? The bottoms of the cleats are so slick.
• What about the hill climbs when I yank my foot out of the cleats?
• And, the only time in the last 30 years when I've "tipped over" was last year, climbing, spun the rear wheel, and lost forward momentum, and tipped over. If only I had flats... well, I would have been walking long before the wheels spun, but I wouldn't have had the feet stuck on the pedals either.
• Ok, I have to admit occasionally walking my cargo bike up the driveway. My cycling shoes (SPD) have pretty hard soles, and can be slippery for pulling a heavy load up the driveway on foot.

This is pretty much my experience. I didn't have pedals for a classic Merckx bike I built up yet, so I threw some platforms on it and my feet were all I thought about (well, that and using downtube shifters). I couldn't find a perfect foot placement and moved my feet constantly. I then bought some era-correct clips and straps, but have only used them a couple of times. I put some speedplays on it just so I could enjoy my rides more without thinking about my feet.

A person who is used to riding flats will likely put the pedal in the middle of their feet, and won't think about it a bit. They also won't be pulling up off of the pedals because that isn't how they ride.

They also won't be riding up mile long 10% grades.