Power Meter>>>Decisions decsions.......
01-08-15, 07:59 PM
#51
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Originally Posted by ljsense
You're exactly right in that there is no argument in this thread that a power meter maximizes training efforts. Not a single person has put forward their case study for how a power meter allowed them to achieve results they couldn't get without one. People just act like it's this fact. I'm here to say it's not.
01-08-15, 08:36 PM
#52
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Originally Posted by RChung
Oh, that. I improved my watts/drag using a power meter. I also decreased my training time without any loss of power using a power meter (I had to -- I had changed jobs and moved to a new city and was forced to cut back my training time from around 10 hrs/wk down to a bit less than 6). Net effect was no loss in power for fewer hours of training time but faster.
[Edited to add] I'm not sure I could have done the drag reduction with something like the Vector S or the Stages.
[Edited to add] I'm not sure I could have done the drag reduction with something like the Vector S or the Stages.
01-08-15, 08:51 PM
#53
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Originally Posted by ljsense
You would have achieved the same stuff, I bet, by racing in your local Tues night practice crit.
01-08-15, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by ljsense
All I keep hearing in this thread is problems with me: I don't know how to use a power meter, I am a jerk, etc.
Which makes me think my arguments are fairly strong.
...
Which makes me think my arguments are fairly strong.
...
01-08-15, 09:59 PM
#56
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Originally Posted by ljsense
Ok. Which rider, after your power meter explanation, set a world record?
[Edited] Ooops, sorry, Molly's was just a US record. She would have set the UCI record but they didn't have UCI officials there.
Last edited by RChung; 01-08-15 at 10:03 PM.
01-08-15, 10:04 PM
#57
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Guys, stop wasting your time and feeding the troll.
01-08-15, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by ljsense
This is my argument: Your success as a cyclist will not be determined by whether you use a power meter.
Originally Posted by ljsense
Think about other athletes -- swimmers, xc skiers, runners, rowers, speed skaters. They all find a way to their top performances without so much digital record keeping going on in front of their faces as they train.
01-08-15, 10:50 PM
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ANYWAY, I just recently got an Elsa R. Probably not "doing it right". But for me it's at least giving me accurate effort data. Before I'd be all like "Hey, I'm going fast." Now it's like "Hey, I'm going fast" and then I look down and the power meter is all like "MORON THIS MUST BE SLIGHTLY DOWNHILL BECAUSE YOU AREN'T WORKING VERY HARD NOW HTFU AND PEDAL MORE". So I do that. And I go even faster.
01-09-15, 06:58 AM
#60
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Originally Posted by JakiChan
Uh, have you met the Garmin 920XT?
Originally Posted by ljsense
I want to hear someone describe the "fun" they're having through the use of a power meter.
Using a power meter to measure your success or failure is also fun.
Analyzing the data is fun.
Properly using a training plan based of power data is fun.
It's just another aspect of riding the bike, which is also fun.
It's also quite useful, which you don't think it is. Oh well...honestly, I think you are hardcore trolling this thread for some weird reason.
01-09-15, 07:02 AM
#61
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Originally Posted by RChung
You mean, which ones? Hmmm. Jayson Austin, Jens Voigt, Molly van Houweling? There may be a couple of others -- I don't really keep count. Also, I forgot to mention Olympic medal winners.
[Edited] Ooops, sorry, Molly's was just a US record. She would have set the UCI record but they didn't have UCI officials there.
[Edited] Ooops, sorry, Molly's was just a US record. She would have set the UCI record but they didn't have UCI officials there.
01-09-15, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by ljsense
Jens Voigt started pro cycling in '97, about 10 years after power meters were introduced. I'm sure you were there in East Germany, though, to explain them to him. And voila, about 20 years later, there he is setting the hour record, thanks to you. I'm glad you have time for bike forums.
HE contributes positively...
01-09-15, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by ljsense
Ok. Which rider, after your power meter explanation, set a world record?
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01-09-15, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by ljsense
Jens Voigt started pro cycling in '97, about 10 years after power meters were introduced. I'm sure you were there in East Germany, though, to explain them to him. And voila, about 20 years later, there he is setting the hour record, thanks to you.
I'm glad you have time for bike forums.
01-09-15, 10:22 AM
#65
Senior Member
Originally Posted by Trsnrtr
I agree with some of what you say, but arguing with Rchung on power meters, aerodynamics, and other cycling science nuances is going to get you filleted, diced and burned.
01-09-15, 10:33 AM
#67
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Originally Posted by RChung
I improved my watts/drag using a power meter. I also decreased my training time without any loss of power using a power meter (I had to -- I had changed jobs and moved to a new city and was forced to cut back my training time from around 10 hrs/wk down to a bit less than 6). Net effect was no loss in power for fewer hours of training time but faster.
You got me. Tell me the secret you told to Jens Voigt. I want in on that action.
01-09-15, 10:50 AM
#69
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RChung, I'm coming at you with what looks to be your own research:
In this paper, you give a way to determine aerodynamics without a power meter: https://anonymous.coward.free.fr/watt...direct-cda.pdf
Namely, coast down a hill and measure speed or rollout. And you point out that some methods of using a power meter to determine CdA have major problems.
In this paper, you give a way to determine aerodynamics without a power meter: https://anonymous.coward.free.fr/watt...direct-cda.pdf
Namely, coast down a hill and measure speed or rollout. And you point out that some methods of using a power meter to determine CdA have major problems.
01-09-15, 10:56 AM
#70
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Originally Posted by ljsense
Namely, coast down a hill and measure speed or rollout. And you point out that some methods of using a power meter to determine CdA have major problems.
01-09-15, 11:10 AM
#71
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Originally Posted by asgelle
I've also found that power meters do a very poor job making waffles.
1. I contend you don't need a power meter
2. People are like, no way, you jerk!
3. I'm like seriously, you don't. Save the benjamins for something fun.
4. People are like: They are fun and super useful!
5: Me: Really? Give me an example
6: RChung: they helped me cut my training to under 6 hours, and made me more aeordynamic
7: RChung: Oh, and my power meter methods are used to set world records
8: Me: Oh really, whose world records
9: RChung: Maybe you've heard of a mo-fo named Jens Voigt
10 Me: I call BS
11: People are like "be wary of RChung"
12: I'm like bring it, RChung
13: I do some googling
14: I find this paper about using a pwoermeter to test on bike aerodynamics
15: The paper is like, most people are doing this wrong and getting bad data from their attempts
16: And the paper is also: Hey, you can do this without a power meter. Just coast down a hill
17: I'm look: Boom, RChung! I told you people could save money and skip the power meter!
01-09-15, 11:19 AM
#72
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Originally Posted by ljsense
Let me recap the case in case I've lost you.
1. I contend you don't need a power meter
2. People are like, no way, you jerk!
3. I'm like seriously, you don't. Save the benjamins for something fun.
4. People are like: They are fun and super useful!
5: Me: Really? Give me an example
6: RChung: they helped me cut my training to under 6 hours, and made me more aeordynamic
7: RChung: Oh, and my power meter methods are used to set world records
8: Me: Oh really, whose world records
9: RChung: Maybe you've heard of a mo-fo named Jens Voigt
10 Me: I call BS
11: People are like "be wary of RChung"
12: I'm like bring it, RChung
13: I do some googling
14: I find this paper about using a pwoermeter to test on bike aerodynamics
15: The paper is like, most people are doing this wrong and getting bad data from their attempts
16: And the paper is also: Hey, you can do this without a power meter. Just coast down a hill
17: I'm look: Boom, RChung! I told you people could save money and skip the power meter!
1. I contend you don't need a power meter
2. People are like, no way, you jerk!
3. I'm like seriously, you don't. Save the benjamins for something fun.
4. People are like: They are fun and super useful!
5: Me: Really? Give me an example
6: RChung: they helped me cut my training to under 6 hours, and made me more aeordynamic
7: RChung: Oh, and my power meter methods are used to set world records
8: Me: Oh really, whose world records
9: RChung: Maybe you've heard of a mo-fo named Jens Voigt
10 Me: I call BS
11: People are like "be wary of RChung"
12: I'm like bring it, RChung
13: I do some googling
14: I find this paper about using a pwoermeter to test on bike aerodynamics
15: The paper is like, most people are doing this wrong and getting bad data from their attempts
16: And the paper is also: Hey, you can do this without a power meter. Just coast down a hill
17: I'm look: Boom, RChung! I told you people could save money and skip the power meter!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKoLdOTdtac
Power meter vs. heart rate monitor. GCN makes some good points in the video.
01-09-15, 11:24 AM
#73
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Originally Posted by ljsense
I've lost you.
01-09-15, 11:24 AM
#74
Senior Member
Originally Posted by RJM
Don't forget you calling people fat, calling pro-power meter people shills for the bike industry, and basically calling out RChung because you don't believe he has worked with world-class athletes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKoLdOTdtac
Power meter vs. heart rate monitor. GCN makes some good points in the video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKoLdOTdtac
Power meter vs. heart rate monitor. GCN makes some good points in the video.
If you debate lobotomy vs. shock therapy, I suppose one of them is going to win. But how about neither?
I'm here to bring the third way back.
01-09-15, 11:26 AM
#75
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Originally Posted by ljsense
And you point out that some methods of using a power meter to determine CdA have major problems.
The bottom line is that we've known for a long time how to get faster.
1. Maximize the power you can put out.
2. Minimize the power you need to put out.
#1 is about training. #2 is about drag reduction (not just aero drag but rolling drag and drivetrain losses and weight) and proper pacing. Properly used, an accurate and precise power meter can help you with both. You (and most of the people who use a power meter) have been focusing only on #1 . However a second saved is a second saved, and the clock doesn't care whether that second came from increased training or reduced drag. The best thing, of course, is to do both. That's allowed, you know.
But now that you've found the paper, you should know that a simplified version is built into Golden Cheetah's "Aerolab Chung Analysis" tab. When Trek Factory Racing was tuning Jens' position and equipment for the hour attempt, they used a slightly more sophisticated data collection system so they could analyze the data in real time. That's the data collection system that's now been installed in several velodromes around the world but once you have the data the analytical method is exactly what I developed. We analyzed Jayson and Molly's data after each test run in preparing for the record attempts, but that was because of the data collection, not the method.
