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Power Meter>>>Decisions decsions.......

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Power Meter>>>Decisions decsions.......

Old 01-08-15, 07:59 PM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by ljsense View Post
You're exactly right in that there is no argument in this thread that a power meter maximizes training efforts. Not a single person has put forward their case study for how a power meter allowed them to achieve results they couldn't get without one. People just act like it's this fact. I'm here to say it's not.
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Old 01-08-15, 08:36 PM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by RChung View Post
Oh, that. I improved my watts/drag using a power meter. I also decreased my training time without any loss of power using a power meter (I had to -- I had changed jobs and moved to a new city and was forced to cut back my training time from around 10 hrs/wk down to a bit less than 6). Net effect was no loss in power for fewer hours of training time but faster.

[Edited to add] I'm not sure I could have done the drag reduction with something like the Vector S or the Stages.
You would have achieved the same stuff, I bet, by racing in your local Tues night practice crit. You'd ride in the drops, take some spacers out from below your stem, train harder in tighter time, tighten up. Plus now I associate a power meter with less riding time. That's not what a person wants.
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Old 01-08-15, 08:51 PM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by ljsense View Post
You would have achieved the same stuff, I bet, by racing in your local Tues night practice crit.
You would lose that bet. Plus, since then, I've taught others how to use their power meters to become faster. That includes riders who have won races -- but also some who have set PBs, national, and world records. And some manufacturers are also using power meters and my methods to make their products faster.
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Old 01-08-15, 08:57 PM
  #54  
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Ok. Which rider, after your power meter explanation, set a world record?
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Old 01-08-15, 09:10 PM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by ljsense View Post
All I keep hearing in this thread is problems with me: I don't know how to use a power meter, I am a jerk, etc.

Which makes me think my arguments are fairly strong.

...
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Old 01-08-15, 09:59 PM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by ljsense View Post
Ok. Which rider, after your power meter explanation, set a world record?
You mean, which ones? Hmmm. Jayson Austin, Jens Voigt, Molly van Houweling? There may be a couple of others -- I don't really keep count. Also, I forgot to mention Olympic medal winners.

[Edited] Ooops, sorry, Molly's was just a US record. She would have set the UCI record but they didn't have UCI officials there.

Last edited by RChung; 01-08-15 at 10:03 PM.
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Old 01-08-15, 10:04 PM
  #57  
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Guys, stop wasting your time and feeding the troll.
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Old 01-08-15, 10:47 PM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by ljsense View Post
This is my argument: Your success as a cyclist will not be determined by whether you use a power meter.
Depends on how you define success. It also depends on how you define fun. You seem to think racing is what matters. Oh well, you're entitled to your opinion. It only applies to you, though.

Originally Posted by ljsense View Post
Think about other athletes -- swimmers, xc skiers, runners, rowers, speed skaters. They all find a way to their top performances without so much digital record keeping going on in front of their faces as they train.
Uh, have you met the Garmin 920XT?
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Old 01-08-15, 10:50 PM
  #59  
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ANYWAY, I just recently got an Elsa R. Probably not "doing it right". But for me it's at least giving me accurate effort data. Before I'd be all like "Hey, I'm going fast." Now it's like "Hey, I'm going fast" and then I look down and the power meter is all like "MORON THIS MUST BE SLIGHTLY DOWNHILL BECAUSE YOU AREN'T WORKING VERY HARD NOW HTFU AND PEDAL MORE". So I do that. And I go even faster.
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Old 01-09-15, 06:58 AM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by JakiChan View Post
Uh, have you met the Garmin 920XT?
Yeah, no kidding.

Originally Posted by ljsense View Post
I want to hear someone describe the "fun" they're having through the use of a power meter.
Making goals and attaining those goals = fun.
Using a power meter to measure your success or failure is also fun.
Analyzing the data is fun.
Properly using a training plan based of power data is fun.
It's just another aspect of riding the bike, which is also fun.

It's also quite useful, which you don't think it is. Oh well...honestly, I think you are hardcore trolling this thread for some weird reason.
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Old 01-09-15, 07:02 AM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by RChung View Post
You mean, which ones? Hmmm. Jayson Austin, Jens Voigt, Molly van Houweling? There may be a couple of others -- I don't really keep count. Also, I forgot to mention Olympic medal winners.

[Edited] Ooops, sorry, Molly's was just a US record. She would have set the UCI record but they didn't have UCI officials there.
Jens Voigt started pro cycling in '97, about 10 years after power meters were introduced. I'm sure you were there in East Germany, though, to explain them to him. And voila, about 20 years later, there he is setting the hour record, thanks to you. I'm glad you have time for bike forums.
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Old 01-09-15, 09:45 AM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by ljsense View Post
Jens Voigt started pro cycling in '97, about 10 years after power meters were introduced. I'm sure you were there in East Germany, though, to explain them to him. And voila, about 20 years later, there he is setting the hour record, thanks to you. I'm glad you have time for bike forums.
I'm glad RChung has time for BF, too.

HE contributes positively...
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Old 01-09-15, 09:59 AM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by ljsense View Post
Ok. Which rider, after your power meter explanation, set a world record?
I agree with some of what you say, but arguing with Rchung on power meters, aerodynamics, and other cycling science nuances is going to get you filleted, diced and burned.
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Old 01-09-15, 10:00 AM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by ljsense View Post
Jens Voigt started pro cycling in '97, about 10 years after power meters were introduced. I'm sure you were there in East Germany, though, to explain them to him. And voila, about 20 years later, there he is setting the hour record, thanks to you.
Yeah, amazingly cool, ain't it?

I'm glad you have time for bike forums.
It can be kinda fun, especially when someone like you comes along.
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Old 01-09-15, 10:22 AM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by Trsnrtr View Post
I agree with some of what you say, but arguing with Rchung on power meters, aerodynamics, and other cycling science nuances is going to get you filleted, diced and burned.
Ok, I'm ready to see him throw down. He better bring it though.
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Old 01-09-15, 10:25 AM
  #66  
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My meter is working just fine.....

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Old 01-09-15, 10:33 AM
  #67  
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Originally Posted by RChung View Post
I improved my watts/drag using a power meter. I also decreased my training time without any loss of power using a power meter (I had to -- I had changed jobs and moved to a new city and was forced to cut back my training time from around 10 hrs/wk down to a bit less than 6). Net effect was no loss in power for fewer hours of training time but faster.
All right, from what's above I thought you were just a dude who realized he should ditch the loose jersey and ride in the drops to squeeze out 23 mph at 245 watts. But you're legendary. Whatever secrets you gleaned by looking at your power meter at speed evidently revolutionized the world of cycling.

You got me. Tell me the secret you told to Jens Voigt. I want in on that action.
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Old 01-09-15, 10:43 AM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by achoo View Post
I'm glad RChung has time for BF, too.

HE contributes positively...
Sorry. I'll try to do better next time.
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Old 01-09-15, 10:50 AM
  #69  
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RChung, I'm coming at you with what looks to be your own research:

In this paper, you give a way to determine aerodynamics without a power meter: https://anonymous.coward.free.fr/watt...direct-cda.pdf

Namely, coast down a hill and measure speed or rollout. And you point out that some methods of using a power meter to determine CdA have major problems.
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Old 01-09-15, 10:56 AM
  #70  
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Originally Posted by ljsense View Post
Namely, coast down a hill and measure speed or rollout. And you point out that some methods of using a power meter to determine CdA have major problems.
I've also found that power meters do a very poor job making waffles.
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Old 01-09-15, 11:10 AM
  #71  
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Originally Posted by asgelle View Post
I've also found that power meters do a very poor job making waffles.
Let me recap the case in case I've lost you.
1. I contend you don't need a power meter
2. People are like, no way, you jerk!
3. I'm like seriously, you don't. Save the benjamins for something fun.
4. People are like: They are fun and super useful!
5: Me: Really? Give me an example
6: RChung: they helped me cut my training to under 6 hours, and made me more aeordynamic
7: RChung: Oh, and my power meter methods are used to set world records
8: Me: Oh really, whose world records
9: RChung: Maybe you've heard of a mo-fo named Jens Voigt
10 Me: I call BS
11: People are like "be wary of RChung"
12: I'm like bring it, RChung
13: I do some googling
14: I find this paper about using a pwoermeter to test on bike aerodynamics
15: The paper is like, most people are doing this wrong and getting bad data from their attempts
16: And the paper is also: Hey, you can do this without a power meter. Just coast down a hill
17: I'm look: Boom, RChung! I told you people could save money and skip the power meter!
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Old 01-09-15, 11:19 AM
  #72  
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Originally Posted by ljsense View Post
Let me recap the case in case I've lost you.
1. I contend you don't need a power meter
2. People are like, no way, you jerk!
3. I'm like seriously, you don't. Save the benjamins for something fun.
4. People are like: They are fun and super useful!
5: Me: Really? Give me an example
6: RChung: they helped me cut my training to under 6 hours, and made me more aeordynamic
7: RChung: Oh, and my power meter methods are used to set world records
8: Me: Oh really, whose world records
9: RChung: Maybe you've heard of a mo-fo named Jens Voigt
10 Me: I call BS
11: People are like "be wary of RChung"
12: I'm like bring it, RChung
13: I do some googling
14: I find this paper about using a pwoermeter to test on bike aerodynamics
15: The paper is like, most people are doing this wrong and getting bad data from their attempts
16: And the paper is also: Hey, you can do this without a power meter. Just coast down a hill
17: I'm look: Boom, RChung! I told you people could save money and skip the power meter!
Don't forget you calling people fat, calling pro-power meter people shills for the bike industry, and basically calling out RChung because you don't believe he has worked with world-class athletes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKoLdOTdtac

Power meter vs. heart rate monitor. GCN makes some good points in the video.
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Old 01-09-15, 11:24 AM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by ljsense View Post
I've lost you.
Yes, you have. This was an interesting discussion before you crapped all over it. You've stated your opinion. Now go away already.
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Old 01-09-15, 11:24 AM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by RJM View Post
Don't forget you calling people fat, calling pro-power meter people shills for the bike industry, and basically calling out RChung because you don't believe he has worked with world-class athletes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKoLdOTdtac

Power meter vs. heart rate monitor. GCN makes some good points in the video.
If you frame it as power meter vs. heart rate monitor, and don't worry about cost, sure, the power meter is going to win that debate no problem. But I'm saying skip them both.

If you debate lobotomy vs. shock therapy, I suppose one of them is going to win. But how about neither?

I'm here to bring the third way back.
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Old 01-09-15, 11:26 AM
  #75  
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Originally Posted by ljsense View Post
And you point out that some methods of using a power meter to determine CdA have major problems.
Right. I'm not sure the Stages or the Vector S would work. You need a power meter that's both accurate and precise over the range of power and speed that cyclists race at. Some power meters (especially, but not limited to, the one-sided ones) aren't up to that task.

The bottom line is that we've known for a long time how to get faster.

1. Maximize the power you can put out.
2. Minimize the power you need to put out.

#1 is about training. #2 is about drag reduction (not just aero drag but rolling drag and drivetrain losses and weight) and proper pacing. Properly used, an accurate and precise power meter can help you with both. You (and most of the people who use a power meter) have been focusing only on #1 . However a second saved is a second saved, and the clock doesn't care whether that second came from increased training or reduced drag. The best thing, of course, is to do both. That's allowed, you know.

But now that you've found the paper, you should know that a simplified version is built into Golden Cheetah's "Aerolab Chung Analysis" tab. When Trek Factory Racing was tuning Jens' position and equipment for the hour attempt, they used a slightly more sophisticated data collection system so they could analyze the data in real time. That's the data collection system that's now been installed in several velodromes around the world but once you have the data the analytical method is exactly what I developed. We analyzed Jayson and Molly's data after each test run in preparing for the record attempts, but that was because of the data collection, not the method.
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