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Ftp or cadence

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Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Ftp or cadence

Old 01-08-15, 07:22 AM
  #26  
achoo
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Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
What is peculiar about the OP's story is that higher cadence usually stresses the CV system not the legs. At least that is what many people say on the "41". OP is saying the opposite. I wonder why.

Lack of experience holding a relatively high cadence for long periods and lack of endurance, both from being new to riding. And a potential overestimate for FTP.

On long solo z2 rides (solo because when I'm alone I do a much better job continuously pedaling), I'll see my cadence start dropping from its normal 90-95 rpm down into the 80s 3-4 hours into the ride if I've been pushing too much into z3/4.

OP still hasn't said at what power he's failing to hold cadence. I'd think if it's anything over 150-160W, he's pushing into z3.
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Old 01-08-15, 07:25 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by chaadster View Post
When training at sufficient intensities, the exact purpose is to stress both system, so the aoP is experiencing precisely what he should, but that does not conflict with the general truism you describe.
The dropping cadence is evidence of fatigue. Ignoring that and saying "Hit your power targets" ignores the possibility of an overestimated FTP, and using an overestimated FTP is a great way to wind up burned out and overtrained.
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Old 01-08-15, 08:35 AM
  #28  
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One of the problems with "canned" programs is they they assume a "well rounded" rider and don't have the ability to adapt to address individual weaknesses. A significant element in maintaining cadence is appropriate neuromuscular development. Someone with good leg strength developed through an off-bike activity like weight lifting may put down great power numbers in a short test, but find that firing the leg muscles at high cyclic rates for long duration taxes the CNS long before lactate induced muscle fatigue catches up.

A coach would likely adjust OP's program to replace some of the power work with cadence work (light spinning at 100+ RPM for extended duration). An even better idea for a beginning rider is to get off the trainer and just go ride. While structured training can have significant benefits for a developed athlete, the randomness of real riding will often result in much faster adaptation for an untrained rider.
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Old 01-08-15, 09:30 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by achoo View Post
The dropping cadence is evidence of fatigue. Ignoring that and saying "Hit your power targets" ignores the possibility of an overestimated FTP, and using an overestimated FTP is a great way to wind up burned out and overtrained.
Of course a training program should be properly defined for the rider's abilities, but it almost must stress and fatigue the rider at times; these are keys to a good training regimen.

Your questions about whether the OP has a proper program are legitimate, and in fact, I doubt he knows what he's doing exactly, too. But, that's okay, and really a separate issue about which I could be wrong, so I was responding to the basic question of whether to prioritize cadence or power.

I'm fine with the OP working his way through this, and don't feel the need to get into how he arrived at this point. In my mind, if he's not hitting his power targets at 85rpm, he's not going to do any better at 75rpm, and that should tigger a re-evaluation of the power goals.

Cadence itself is not a goal. Cadence must be coupled with power to have value, and if one is not making the power, changing cadence will not do anything about that.

Again, though, I'm assuming his program has power and cadence targets, and I'm working on the assumption it's properly suited to his ability (or that he thinks it is). He should follow the plan and hit the targets, but at the point when he's maxed and has to make the call whether to slow the cadence or back off power, he should slow the cadence. When that fails, then you drop power and just finish off the session as best as you can.
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Old 01-08-15, 02:29 PM
  #30  
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I also wonder what power you are holding for two hours. A more reasonable goal is 6-7 hours if it is flat and no wind. That is with a group size of 2 where you both pull about the same amount of time. Get a bigger group in a pace line and you can go faster for longer. With 8 months to get there working on cadence and base miles to me seems the smarter way to go. After a base is built adding intensity to raise your power output might get you to sub 7 hours.
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Old 01-08-15, 03:26 PM
  #31  
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I hope you aren't training anywhere close to your FTP. That won't build endurance fitness, and it will burn you out.

80 % of your training hours should be under 70% of your FTP. On a perceived exertion scale of 1 to 10, shoot for 3 or 4 or stay under 190 watts, assuming your true FTP is 275 as you say.

In a few months, you'll find that the power at which you can ride at this level of exertion has increased to the point where youre holding 20 mph solo... and way below FTP. That's when your legs have adapted to burning fat at higher power, and your aerobic base is built.

With this type of base, the need to replenish glycogen on long rides decreases.
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Old 01-08-15, 03:45 PM
  #32  
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use ERG mode with the KICKR, and you can vary cadence as much as you want without having to think about the power you are putting out. IMHO this is the most useful function of the KICKR
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Old 01-08-15, 03:47 PM
  #33  
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and if you haven't done it yet, do the 20 minute test on trainerroad to confirm your FTP. without confirmation of your FTP, you are lost, and sad, and maybe hurty.
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Old 01-08-15, 03:50 PM
  #34  
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Sounds to me like the OP doesn't know what FTP actually means.

I get the impression that the OP is currently riding at "FTP" for two hours, in which case their FTP is actually underestimated.
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Old 01-08-15, 04:16 PM
  #35  
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You seem to have a few terms confused...but that is ok, we will help you out..

if you are looking to ride a century then you are talking about 6+ hour of time in the saddle on that day

my advice, this is how to start:

you need to build up your base.. find a comfortable tempo/gear that you can hold for 60 minutes where your cadence is between 85-100. During the week do that every other day. On weekends extend that time a bit further.

Keep track of your distance time, be honest with your effort and push yourself. Stick to this routine for 1 month and then report back to us. Join Strava to track your data.

The above routine will prepare your body to take things to the next level. We need to you get to the point where cranking 50-60 miles is a regular weekend ride for you.
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Old 01-08-15, 04:47 PM
  #36  
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This is my flow chart from trainer road that i am following:

Traditional Base low/mid volume 1 - 5 plus hrs a week

Traditional Base low/mid volume 2

Traditional Base low/mid volume 3

Then Base Conditioned

Then General Fitness

Then 5+hours a week

Then Leisure

Then Novice Century High Volume

Then Advanced Century High Volume

They have me do FTP test at the beginning of each new segment and I am due for one in another week so will see what that test puts me at.

I am in EGR mode and just following what trainer road tells me to do based on my test and flow chart, my heart rate is good and I dont feel winded it just seems like my legs burn alot more if I try to maintain a 92 to 95 cadence and the burn leaves up if I drop down to 80 to 85 about 1 hour and 20 minutes in. Not sure if it mattered and everything I read about centurys is a high cadence in a easier gear is more important than low cadence in a harder gear?
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Old 01-08-15, 05:27 PM
  #37  
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What power are you putting out at 92-95 rpm for that hour and twenty minutes before your cadence drops?
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Old 01-08-15, 05:40 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by achoo View Post
What power are you putting out at 92-95 rpm for that hour and twenty minutes before your cadence drops?
achoo,
power is not the same for the whole training session as here is a attachment to show you, the power that you put out varies based on the program segment your on.
The Wahoo Kicker adjust the power on the fly via bluetooth communication.
Hope that helps.
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Old 01-08-15, 06:10 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by NASOTANG View Post
achoo,
power is not the same for the whole training session as here is a attachment to show you, the power that you put out varies based on the program segment your on.
The Wahoo Kicker adjust the power on the fly via bluetooth communication.
Hope that helps.
It would if I could read the numbers on the left...
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Old 01-08-15, 06:43 PM
  #40  
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You're doing better than me, cuz I can't read either axis. It's an unfamiliar pattern, though; what are the dropouts along the horizontal axis?
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Old 01-08-15, 07:05 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by achoo View Post
Why do you think you need to drop your cadence to maintain your power output?
Exactly. Power is a function of torque (pedal pressure) and RPM (cadence). You can achieve power at a low cadence/high torque or high cadence/low torque.
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Old 01-08-15, 07:07 PM
  #42  
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Power Based Indoor Cycling Training Software - TrainerRoad

Here is a link and if you look at sample rides you will see that power changes as the ride goes and is different on every ride, they have hundreds of them and unless your signed up you cant see them.
Could not get a cleaner pic, sorry.
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Old 01-08-15, 07:13 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by bikepro View Post
Exactly. Power is a function of torque (pedal pressure) and RPM (cadence). You can achieve power at a low cadence/high torque or high cadence/low torque.
I dont want too but my legs like it a lot better when I do.
The bottom line is I can maintain the power the program wants me to but not at a higher cadence for the whole ride and wanted to know if the higher cadence is important for my goal of a century. How did this get so complicated
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Old 01-08-15, 07:56 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by NASOTANG View Post
How did this get so complicated
A lot of people don't understand what training with power means. That's how.
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Old 01-08-15, 10:40 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by NASOTANG View Post
I dont want too but my legs like it a lot better when I do.
The bottom line is I can maintain the power the program wants me to but not at a higher cadence for the whole ride and wanted to know if the higher cadence is important for my goal of a century. How did this get so complicated
Go with a higher cadence. Your legs will last longer before fatigue starts setting in.
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Old 01-09-15, 12:01 AM
  #46  
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The power target in TrainerRoad is just a target, but if you read the pop-up messages they usually remind that when your form suffers then back off until your form is correct. Your cadence target is a range of 85-95, I will be satisfied if I hit the bottom of that range. But if I fall below that, then I need to back off and raise my cadence. I think the TrainerRoad program is outstanding considering the price.

Let me add another component here, if you have not been cycling very long (less than two years) then building up muscle will come quickly, but a lot of the the other supporting and connective tissue takes a much longer time to adjust to the stresses from cycling. If you focus on the power you also increase the risk for injury, and completely blowing your training plan.

Just hang in there and stay with the plan, you'll get there...
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