Shuffleman

I ride Campy and I also own a business, of which I feel the same was as the "idiot" that you are quoting. I may be an idiot too as I seem to recall being called that many times, usually by an employee or two, who always know more than me.
With that being said, I am assuming that you are neither in sales or own a business. People ask me all the time, who my competition is. My answer is simple--My only competition is myself. I will go as high or as low as I make myself go.
I do not consider myself a "fanboy" of Campy or any other thing for that matter. I like Campy and put it on my road bike. I also like Shimano, and have it on my mtb and my hybrid. I have no experience riding Sram but have heard good things about it. It is really a preference. They are all good. I think that Record and DA are comparable and Ultegra and Athena are comparable. Again, it is subjective. I like the larger hoods on my Campy and find them more comfortable for my hands. I also like the thumb shifter. If I ever build another bike, I would put Campy on it again but if Shimano was way less expensive, I would think twice about it.
For the record, Campy is not that expensive. Go to Ribble or PBK and I find little cost difference.

Leinster

I can imagine that the Campagnolo family would look at what happened to the likes of Schwinn and Peugeot who got themselves to the top of their respective markets, but lost control of quality and their outsourced production, and now exist only as wholly owned subsidiaries of faceless parent companies. One of Campy's stated reasons for basing their "low-cost" manufacturing in Romania, rather than Taiwan or China, is that it's driving distance (though a fairly long drive it has to be said) from Vicenza, so it's easier to keep an eye on things.

carlcurry

"For the record, Campy is not that expensive. Go to Ribble or PBK and I find little cost difference."

^^^This. It's only more expensive in American markets, particularly the American LBS. I've been a believer in supporting the LBS for a long time. Paying too much for things I knew I could get cheaper online because the LBS had it in stock. Tipping the mechanic $40 for a decent job on a fresh build, etc.
But now most everything Campagnolo local is special order (even though it's readily available elsewhere) and overpriced. That and two recent experiences of shop work that was crap which I ended up redoing myself anyway means I've just about had it with blind loyalty.
Ribble and many sites like them have the prices right, might ship it for free, and you'll get it as quickly as the local 'special order.'
You should arrive at Campagnolo, Shimano, SRAM because of personal preference and value. They can all get the job done well. Shimano so owns the OEM market it's difficult to get the opportunity to try the alternatives and get a real choice.

D1andonlyDman

Fine, as long as you acknowledge that this is completely Sales pitch BS, rather than objective truth. If you honestly believe that you have no actual competition, you won't be in business for long. It's one thing to refuse to acknowledge your competition to a potential customer (and personally, I'd walk out on any person in any industry who tried that nonsense on me - and I often do), but it's another thing entirely to fool yourself into believing your own BS.

bigdo13

actually I think dogs do that for cleaning purposes...

lsberrios1 

Toyota and mercedes are direct competitors just like mazda to porsche..... they are not. Toyota aims a different target of people with different incomes, Mercedes targets people with money and an image to portray. The cars are built with different materials altogether. Now toyota and VW could be direct competitors if you want to go german vs japanese. Just because they are cars it means they aim at each others market. Just GMC doesn't aim at pinnarelo's market.

Doge

That may be true.
I heard NO pro tour teams were going to use them this year - then I believe one is.

Leinster

1 World Tour (AG2R) and 2 Continental (Roompot and Drapac) teams are using SRAM components this year. I believer there are a few others at whatever level exists just below.

gc3

kbarch

I thought it was obvious how much I the 41. I just don't understand or particularly care for the prevailing obsession with how much things cost (and evaluation of things on that basis) - in ANY forum.

You may be right on your first point, and your final point sounds most reasonable, but it gets complicated if you're wrong about the manufacturers' intentions - the categories between "bare bones basic" and "professional grade" seem quite muddled.

I'm not saying it's an irrational question, or that it surprises me, just that I don't understand the obsession with the price of things.

StanSeven

You are exactly right. Any smart person in business knows their competition. They assess honestly and devise strategic ways to win.

Hapsmo911

I have had each of the big three groups on bikes over the last five years. Including DA Record Ultegra 105 Chorus and Force. Each has very different and distinct subjective advantages, if you want to call them that. It all depends on what your looking for, thumb shifting may be a deal breaker for some, the butter smooth shifting of shimano some love others prefer the definitive feeling you get from Campy shifting. For me I think it boils down to Ergos, tradition, feeling, and in what order you value each of those that decides on what brand you will go with.

As for value. well value is perceived by the purchaser for his or her own reason. Marketing is obviously huge on perceived value as is reputation. Hence why some are die hard "fanboys" for any of the top brands.

The car comparison seems reasonable. In America we have Acura and Honda same damn company but the marketing gurus have sold us on one being superior over the other, but they are the same parent company. In many other countries there is no such thing as Acura. So there are MDX owners who would snub a Honda Pilot owner. I remember the first time I opened the hood on a Honda Passport, I laughed when I saw the name Isuzu on the top of the valve cover. Made me wonder how many proud owners there were of their new "Honda" that didn't even know it was an Isuzu Trooper. Many of those people bought those cars based on the Honda brand reliability. So their perceived value, at least at time of purchase, was probably pretty high. But if you asked me the value was much lower. Kinda silly but fitting i think.

I would bet that there are some who flame the Campy crowd here on the forums thinking they waste their money. I would also bet that some of those same people own some ********ly expensive pair of jeans that would have no perceived value to me. Anyway... All top three have expensive groups, Campy just seems to target their products to a smaller market that will pay a few more bucks for their highest tiers for whatever reasons they choose.

bruce19

great sense of humor.

kbarch

You have a point, but that "BS" has some merit in that you don't necessarily have to care about who the competition is in order to succeed if you know what you're doing and do it right. And if you don't know what you're doing, it won't matter how well you understand the competition, you probably won't succeed. As much as success may matter, in most pursuits, winning isn't the only thing. The only time winning can reasonably be said to be the "only thing" is when what you're actually doing doesn't mean anything (e.g., moving a piece of leather around on a big lawn).

I'd say that it's like driving. Conceivably you can have a perfectly safe drive without ever paying any attention to what's happening behind you or to your left. Of course you'd be foolish and negligent not to look those ways from time to time, but generally speaking, you have the right of way over anyone in those directions, so it's silly to be preoccupied with what's coming from from those points. Also, as much as there are others out there on the same road, and you have to watch out for them, chances are they aren't headed to quite the same place. As long as they aren't trying to get to the exact same spot at the exact same time as you, you should have nothing to worry about.

Alias530

Because most people spend the majority of their adult life working (between commuting, getting ready for work, and actually working, most spend more than HALF their waking hours in a week) to make money and the cost of things affects how much money they have left over.

kbarch

If this were the commuting or car-free forum, I might get that, but this is the 41. The stuff we talk about here is entirely discretionary, i.e., not only is it a matter of what someone spends "left over" money on, but a person can decide whether he likes, wants or can afford any of this stuff as much or as little as he likes. And he can make that decision whenever he wants. Why obsess over the price of luxury goods and such - something one cannot expect to change? Why wouldn't one change ones mind about discretionary things instead - what to go after, what to ignore or forego, etc.? The price of something may be reason enough to buy some discretionary item or not, but it's hardly a reason to care about it.

StanSeven

I hear Campy is coming out with 12 wireless. Wait for it. Just don't plan on SRAM because they're going out of business

Shuffleman

18 years and counting. You can't sell everybody. You just need a small percentage to win. I don't knock the competition. I don't hide from it either. If you know your market and execute properly the only person that can stop you is yourself.
im quite sure that Campy knows their market and caters to it. I like the product quite a bit but I don't think that shimano or sramm is garbage. It is just preference and choice that is forced upon you. In America most bikes are made with shimano. It would be great to have your choice but it does not work that way unless you build out from scratch.

coasting 

so you DO have competition then? Of course you do. You just know where you have an advantage over them and run your buisness accordingly. The market is big enough to be sliced and diced for each competitor to take its piece and that only happens when you acknowledge your strengths and weaknesses, rather than sticking your head in the sand and pretend you have no competitors.

campy and Shimno ARE competitors. They just chase differnet parts of the market with different strategies.

Roadbikedude

Let's review - do you like gold or silver, good or best, fast or fastest, steel or ceramic, aluminum or carbon, etc.********** You get what you pay for but not always.

Gus90

Must have a Campagnolo drive train.

rjones28 

SlowerGuy

"Why?"
- so there can be endless discussions about this kind of important topic on forums.
- to keep the riff-raff out.

flatlander_48

Are you sure? It doesn't make sense. When Super Record EPS was first introduced it was in the $3500 to $4000 range and that was 2011. I think your numbers are wrong.

You have to be careful with that. Retailers can have different deals with the manufacturer. You could also be making a comparison with last year's model. The only thing that you can say is that at a given retailer, the overhead would be applied across everything they sell. Other than that, who is to say what arrangements are in place?

That was Tullio's philosophy, so it goes 'way back.

The thing that NO ONE has really discussed is the relative sizes of Shimano and Campagnolo. Several years ago (maybe 2010?) Bicycling did an indepth article on Campagnolo and they listed the sales volume for both companies. The bicycle division of Shimano at the point did $2,000,000,000 (yes, $2bil) compared to Campagnolo at $150,000,000. All other things being equal, which they rarely are, that means that Campagnolo cannot buy materials and manufacturing machines as cheaply as Shimano. If it cost the same amount of money to develop a new product at both companies, Campagnolo's prices MUST BE HIGHER because there are fewer sales to absorb those costs. And actually Campagnolo may put more money into development and testing because they cannot afford to put duds on the market. They don't have the insulation to ride out a bad product like Shimano can.

That's the real truth of it. Anything else is fabrication.

So, why do I ride Campagnolo? I like:

• separate lever for each function
• not having the brake lever moving in 2 places
• that you actuate the levers in the same way as the chain is moving when shifted
• having the brake release on the body of the brake/shifter
• being connected with the history of Campagnolo
• how it looks
• how positive the shifts feel (and yes, I rode Shimano for 18 months)

Alias530

Depends where you look... All my numbers but EPS are about as good as you're going to get. I'm sure you could do better for SR EPS if you got the less comprehensive group (i.e. crank/derailleurs/shifters/cassette/chain only--no brakes, bottom bracket, etc) but my other prices are for the COMPLETE kit so I thought it only fair to compare COMPLETE groups.

Bikes and their parts cost more every year so I wouldn't be surprised if the 2011 kit was cheaper than it is now. That said, even at the low end of your scale it's quite a bit more expensive than the Shimano/SRAM equivalent. SRAM doesn't have an electronic group readily available yet but comparing Di2 to EPS, DA to SR, Red to SR, Red to DA, etc...