Bike Forums - Saddle height: it isn't always so straightforward

Bike Forums (https://www.bikeforums.net/forum.php)

- Road Cycling (https://www.bikeforums.net/road-cycling/)

- - Saddle height: it isn't always so straightforward (https://www.bikeforums.net/road-cycling/990912-saddle-height-isnt-always-so-straightforward.html)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Six jours (Post 17496479)

You are quite possibly the most earnest person I have ever seen.

Wait, where have you seen me? Are you spying on me. HELP! STALKER! STALKER!

At least I do get my own jokes. :)

And it IS easy to know where you stand with me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 79pmooney (Post 17494488)

We clearly have a need for new technology. First we have a chip/emitter implanted on the pivot of our hips Then another we can locate at the ball of our foot. Then a readout of the total and horizontal distances between. (Better do both hips so no cheating.) Then when we get a bike right, we note the distance. Now it is child's play to set up the next bike. Seat, shoe and cleats are all automatically accounted for. For now, we probably have to use local emitters and receivers, but in 5 years or so we ought to have GPS down to the required accuracy.

In all seriousness, this is what we are striving for: to locate the hips properly about the crank circle. A set number doesn't work when seats change, different shoes/cleats/pedals are used or clothing alters our position. I go by knee bend at the bottom of my pedal stroke. With traditional pedals (and this works fairly well with my other pedals) I sit on the bike barefoot and place my heel on the pedal.. For me, the ideal seat height is when I can either bend my knee or straighten it without rocking my hips. I like my seats lower than many people. It you want higher, wear a slipper or cycling shoe with no heel. Higher still? Try a shoe with a low heel. This approach takes different seats completely out of the equation. When you find a bike/seat that is right, do this test, looking for the shoe/sock combo that hits that spot. Now you can quickly get any seat on any bike to close to perfect. All that is left is compensating for different shoe/cleat/pedals.

Ben

I don't even think its that straightforward when it comes to changing seats. I believe the shape of the seat affects ideal seat height because of how the shape of the seat interacts with the pelvis at the bottom of the pedal stroke. So knee angle may have to be a bit different for say a wider versus narrower seat.
I do agree that the fore/aft position of the rider and hip angle seems to be the holy grail. Even though I have been tinkering with my fit for more than 3 decades, every one in a while I go to the wild side and change up my position on my bike. Mostly I push the seat forward and raise it and go to a longer stem and ride it this way for a couple of weeks. I always go back to more setback and a lower seat to get my hip angle right and less weight on my hands and the glutes more into the pedal stroke.

So setting bikes up the same if they have a different saddle to me, isn't cut and dried. When I recently changed my old Toupe out for a new model, it took me a few trips on the bike with my allen wrench to get it dialed in. Certainly easy to get I close however...just not spot on.

To me, changing the saddle tilt of a Toupe say even 2 degrees completely changes the way the sit bones are pressured versus not, perineum pressure versus not, ability to ride in the drops with or without pressure...saddle tilt is hugely important to fit. Fit is very nuanced in my experience.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rpenmanparker (Post 17496514)

Lot's of folks disagree with you. I can feel a couple of mm of height difference. Not even pedaling. Just coasting. If a couple of mm low, I feel like I am sitting in a hole.

Really?! Wow! Was that always the case, or is it something that developed from many years of riding?

Quote:

Originally Posted by rpenmanparker (Post 17496514)

Lot's of folks disagree with you. I can feel a couple of mm of height difference. Not even pedaling. Just coasting. If a couple of mm low, I feel like I am sitting in a hole.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stucky (Post 17498496)

Really?! Wow! Was that always the case, or is it something that developed from many years of riding?

I dunno. I have been noticing it more lately. I was riding around on an old saddle and just felt low. Raised it just a few mm and felt right again. When I finally replaced that saddle, I noticed it had developed a curve in it from my weight that was not original to it. Then I have been noticing the opposite with the stiffer new saddle I was talking about above. Go figure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rpenmanparker (Post 17496393)

Yeah, the specific answer is clear. I think the broader lesson is important too. Saddle height has to be kept up with on a constant basis. You can't just set it and forget it. Like you say, different shorts, and also shoes, new pedals, saddle aging or replacement, and I'm sure lots of other stuff all make a difference.

even over time the body's flexibility varies. I've had situations after a cold winter of not riding and the saddle feels too high on the first few rides.

Quote:

Originally Posted by coasting (Post 17498888)

even over time the body's flexibility varies. I've had situations after a cold winter of not riding and the saddle feels too high on the first few rides.

That is certainly my experience, I ride into December and as it gets colder and I get older and less flexible , cold leg muscles do notice if my seat is a bit too high which was fine in much warmer weather and a more flexible muscles.

I've lowered the seat a bit, helps especially when the weather is inconsistent and I can't ride often and then it could be 0c and windy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stucky (Post 17496462)

Awww, C'mon now.....are such little piddling differences really of any concern? Our eyes and mind might "see" a few millimeters difference, but I don't believe that our legs would notice, unless our normal position were at one of the extremes, to the point where just a hair's difference starts wrecking our pedaling mechanics- but if our normal positions were at such an extreme, we'd likely be having problems already/need to adapt a better fit to begin with, eh*?

[*= Why am I talking Canadian?]

Must be a Bumpkinsville thing ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stucky (Post 17498496)

Really?! Wow! Was that always the case, or is it something that developed from many years of riding?

For me, I can recall trying to make tiny adjustments on my Falcon with a Brooks Pro, back in the late '60s. Now I make the adjustments and then measure the position. I know that what I feel is about 2 mm difference.

So do you guys change the saddle height when you wear shorts with different thickness chamois pads? Wow...

What about socks?

i change my saddle height in the winter when i'm fatter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkbaby (Post 17501085)

So do you guys change the saddle height when you wear shorts with different thickness chamois pads? Wow...

What about socks?

chuckle, like the socks comment.
My comment came from probably having my seat a bit too high to begin with, and riding with really old, totally thin chammy that were sqwershed all to nothing--then riding on some brand new Assos that had the thickest most rigid chammy I've ever seen, combined with starting to use the new ones when I hadn't ridden that much in the season, so not as flexible.

I'm sure there's a bit of Princess and the pea thing going on here, but hey, I noticed it. Most likely wouldnt have made a diff if the other factors werent there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkbaby (Post 17501085)

So do you guys change the saddle height when you wear shorts with different thickness chamois pads?

Yes, I had to do that when I tried one of those bibs with diaper chamois... (more than 10mm thick).
During the test ride I learned that a thick seat pad isn't for me, so I'm always trying to buy bibs with "thin" seat pads -- no weird feeling when riding, no saddle height adjustment needed.

I once knew a guy who was constantly fiddling with his seat adjustment. Brought a wrench with him while riding so he could add half a millimeter at a stoplight or whatever. One day he didn't tighten the bolt enough and as the ride went on his seatpost very gradually descended into the frame. It was a couple of inches low by the time he noticed it. After that he pretty much stopped telling folks about how sensitive he was to small changes in position. We kept making fun of him, of course, but it was also a bit of a lesson to all of us, WRT perception and adaptation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Six jours (Post 17501377)

At least some others are like me! On my first road bike, the seat had a tendency to slip once in a while. It would have to drop a few inches before I'd notice that my legs were still quite bent at the bottom of the pedal stroke. I eventually put a piece of tape on it, so I could look at it before every ride and see if it had slipped. I find it hard to believe that anyone could really notice a few millimeters. Just the movement of your leg and ass muscles can alter your elevation quite a few millimeters...... as can your position on the seat.

A couple of weeks ago I had a shoe/cleat problem at about the 13 mile point of a 34 mile ride. Couldn't fix it on the road, so I just rode the next 21 miles without being able to clip-in my right foot (with lots of big hills, no less). I'm just thinking: That would probably drive someone crazy if they are the type to obsess over a few millimeters!

Quote:

Originally Posted by SlowerGuy (Post 17501145)

in my defence, the time those new shortsmade the seat feel too high (and I would still say something like 10mm would be noticeable by most people) I had had a muscle problem earlier that probably had come from having my seat a bit too high combined with cold legs, and since I had never had this happen before in all my years riding, and the muscle was sore for a good while, I was being extra careful.
And I agree about the fat chammys, it seems it took a good long time for my shorts to get squished down to not feel diapery, maybe its my seat and body shape, but I wouldnt buy thick ones again like that, just didnt know any better.

Six jours, funny story.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stucky (Post 17501462)

Well, I lowered my saddle exactly 5 mm and rode the bike today. Much better but just a milli-smidgen too much. On the road I raised it back just a mm or so and had it dialed in perfectly. Precise saddle height does matter. Seems to me to be better to be able to feel it rather than have to find out some other way, like knee pain.

In all fairness, I can feel a 2mm difference in saddle height. That is to say, if I ride a bike for a while and then change the seat height by 2mm, I can tell. The question is whether it matters at all. It doesn't to me, but it's not my place to say whether it matters to somebody else. Personally, my saddle height can vary by a cm. or so before I notice any difference in comfort, power output, or whatever.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rpenmanparker (Post 17502523)

Hey. more power to ya if you're that attuned to your riding! :thumb:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stucky (Post 17502653)

Hey. more power to ya if you're that attuned to your riding! :thumb:

How about if I am just FOS? ;)