Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Road Cycling
Reload this Page >

Would someone please explain direct mount brakes?

Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Would someone please explain direct mount brakes?

Old 01-24-15, 08:22 AM
  #1  
rpenmanparker 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
rpenmanparker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 28,406

Bikes: 1990 Romic Reynolds 531 custom build, Merlin Works CR Ti custom build, super light Workswell 066 custom build

Mentioned: 103 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6343 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Would someone please explain direct mount brakes?

What are they? Who makes them? Trek says they eliminate redundant parts. Maybe so, but in the picture they show it appears the redundant parts are replaced with a pants-load full of new, unique parts. What is the advantage of that?

Attached Images
File Type: jpg
Direct mount brakes.jpg (17.6 KB, 998 views)
__________________
Robert

Originally Posted by LAJ View Post
No matter where I go, here I am...
rpenmanparker is offline  
Old 01-24-15, 09:05 AM
  #2  
carpediemracing 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Tariffville, CT
Posts: 15,092

Bikes: Tsunami Bikes

Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 262 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 1 Post
The idea was to remove the bars across the back of the brake. The best comparison I can think of is center pull brakes vs roller cam brakes.

The extra parts I believe are for extra clearance so they're a red herring. Consider that there'd normally be a very rigid aluminum or maybe carbon? piece holding the two mounting posts. You save that with the direct mount brakes.

No matter what the complicated mechanism above the brake, the direct mount frame saves the bar that would hold the two mounting posts.
__________________
"...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson
carpediemracing is offline  
Old 01-24-15, 09:25 AM
  #3  
rpenmanparker 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
rpenmanparker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 28,406

Bikes: 1990 Romic Reynolds 531 custom build, Merlin Works CR Ti custom build, super light Workswell 066 custom build

Mentioned: 103 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6343 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
So the fork crown stands in for that rear mounting post bracket.
__________________
Robert

Originally Posted by LAJ View Post
No matter where I go, here I am...
rpenmanparker is offline  
Old 01-24-15, 10:27 AM
  #4  
carpediemracing 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Tariffville, CT
Posts: 15,092

Bikes: Tsunami Bikes

Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 262 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 1 Post
Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
So the fork crown stands in for that rear mounting post bracket.
Right, or in the back either the chainstays or the seat stays act in a similar manner.
__________________
"...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson
carpediemracing is offline  
Old 01-24-15, 10:35 AM
  #5  
carpediemracing 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Tariffville, CT
Posts: 15,092

Bikes: Tsunami Bikes

Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 262 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 1 Post
To expand a bit, until dual pivot side pull brakes were popular there was no reason to have direct mount brakes - the bolt going through both arms also held the brake on. There were two aluminum arms on each brake, one for the left, one for the right.

With the advent of dual pivot, i.e. a pivot on each side of the brake, there was a third aluminum arm, the one that holds the two posts.

In this stock picture (from CC in this case) the third bar is visible in the front brake. The rear brake is the old style side pull brake. The dual pivot brake uses the center bolt as one pivot and a second offset pivot as the second. The latter gives more leverage than the center bolt so ideally you'd want two offset pivots, aka like an old style center pull brake.



With a direct mount brake you get the better pivot placement and no extra material on the brake. I figure the frame/fork would need a bit of reinforcement to resist flexing, just like when V-brakes were originally introduced - if you retrofitted V-brakes on a lighter regular-cantilever brake frame you could see the seat stays flexing out as you applied the brakes. Once frames got reinforced the V-brakes worked fine, but on older non-V-brake designed frames the V-brakes did not improve braking.
__________________
"...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson
carpediemracing is offline  
Old 01-24-15, 10:43 AM
  #6  
rpenmanparker 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
rpenmanparker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 28,406

Bikes: 1990 Romic Reynolds 531 custom build, Merlin Works CR Ti custom build, super light Workswell 066 custom build

Mentioned: 103 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6343 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Thanks, that explains it. So the Emonda frames are drilled for the direct mount brakes. Are all the major brands offering them? Are the fork and brake bridge area on the Emonda or other newer bikes also drilled for regular side pulls and dual pivots?
__________________
Robert

Originally Posted by LAJ View Post
No matter where I go, here I am...
rpenmanparker is offline  
Old 01-24-15, 11:25 AM
  #7  
k_kibbler
Senior Member
 
k_kibbler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 241

Bikes: Canyon Ultimate CF SL

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
1) Not sure. Some newer frames (eg. 2015 Aeroad) have them but they're far from common. There are still too few options for direct mount brakes ATM.

2) No, afaik they're mutually exclusive mounting designs.
k_kibbler is offline  
Old 01-24-15, 11:56 AM
  #8  
carpediemracing 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Tariffville, CT
Posts: 15,092

Bikes: Tsunami Bikes

Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 262 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 1 Post
Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
Thanks, that explains it. So the Emonda frames are drilled for the direct mount brakes. Are all the major brands offering them? Are the fork and brake bridge area on the Emonda or other newer bikes also drilled for regular side pulls and dual pivots?
I looked at the Emonda pages. Looks like they are not compatible with standard center bolt type brakes (side pull / dual pivot / etc).

Right now it's a smaller number of frames but I think that we'll see a larger number of them in the future.

It's like threadless fork/stem set ups - when they were first introduced everyone was saying "well it's not worth it" to get rid of quill stems. That design also had duplicated efforts with the quill inside the steerer and long bolts holding stuff together. Now quills are quaint antiquated things that seem inefficient compared to the very simple "clamp the steerer with a few short bolts" threadless stem system.

Likewise BB/crank interfaces have gotten rid of the heavy solid steel BB axle, the two big bolts (typically steel) holding the arms to said axle, etc. With the newer stuff (I have a set of FSA cranks as well as Cannondale SI sets) it's one bolt that's smaller/lighter or even no steel anything except maybe bearings (BB30).
__________________
"...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson
carpediemracing is offline  
Old 01-24-15, 12:22 PM
  #9  
jkuper
Senior Member
 
jkuper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: MD
Posts: 283

Bikes: Yes

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
What are they? Who makes them? Trek says they eliminate redundant parts. Maybe so, but in the picture they show it appears the redundant parts are replaced with a pants-load full of new, unique parts. What is the advantage of that?

Shimano offers direct mount calipers in 105, Ultegra and Dura-ace. Pick your poison
jkuper is offline  
Old 01-24-15, 12:26 PM
  #10  
RNAV
Flyin' under the radar
 
RNAV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: O'Fallon, IL
Posts: 739

Bikes: '15 Trek Emonda SL8 Red, '03 LeMond Croix de fer custom painted, '90 Trek 420 converted to FG

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 115 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
So the Emonda frames are drilled for the direct mount brakes.
To clarify, only the Emonda SLR is made for direct mount brakes. The SL and S are made for traditional side pulls.
RNAV is offline  
Old 01-24-15, 01:10 PM
  #11  
gsa103
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 4,166

Bikes: Bianchi Infinito (Celeste, of course)

Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 629 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Virtually every review of direct mount brakes is that they are lighter, stronger and better modulation than the previous generation of dual-pivots. I suspect they will be standard in a few years.
gsa103 is offline  
Old 01-25-15, 03:26 AM
  #12  
cpach
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Posts: 1,143

Bikes: Too many. Cannondale SuperSix, Trek Remedy 8, Trek Crossrip+ get the most ride time.

Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 222 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
They also reportedly have better tire clearence. It would be fantastic if most racing frames could use 28s, or fenders. They seem like an actual good idea. Not a big deal either way.
cpach is offline  
Old 01-25-15, 05:56 AM
  #13  
GlennR
Formerly oldnslow2
 
GlennR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Long Island, New York, USA
Posts: 5,395

Bikes: Trek Emonda SLR, Sram eTap, Zipp 303

Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1098 Post(s)
Liked 84 Times in 47 Posts
Here's the Emonda SLR front fork with the bungs for direct mount brakes.

GlennR is online now  
Old 01-25-15, 07:18 AM
  #14  
Walter
SLJ 6/8/65-5/2/07
 
Walter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: SE Florida, USA aka the Treasure Coast
Posts: 5,390
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by cpach View Post
They also reportedly have better tire clearence. It would be fantastic if most racing frames could use 28s, or fenders. They seem like an actual good idea. Not a big deal either way.
Agreed. No shortage of change just for the sake of change in the bike industry but there does look to be some real upside here. Of course there's also the movement to disk...
__________________
“Life is not one damned thing after another. Life is one damned thing over and over.”
Edna St. Vincent Millay
Walter is offline  
Old 01-25-15, 07:44 AM
  #15  
CliffordK
Senior Member
 
CliffordK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Posts: 22,445
Mentioned: 166 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8493 Post(s)
Liked 61 Times in 55 Posts
Of course, before the Dual Pivot brakes, there were the Center Pull brakes.



And, apparently they modified the design with an early braze-on.



Is there anything truly NEW in the bike world?
CliffordK is online now  
Old 01-25-15, 08:30 AM
  #16  
rpenmanparker 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
rpenmanparker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 28,406

Bikes: 1990 Romic Reynolds 531 custom build, Merlin Works CR Ti custom build, super light Workswell 066 custom build

Mentioned: 103 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6343 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
I suspect another reason for this "improvement" is to shut out the specialty brake makers like Zero Gravity, KCNC, Planet X, and the like. You can't use them if you can't mount them.
__________________
Robert

Originally Posted by LAJ View Post
No matter where I go, here I am...
rpenmanparker is offline  
Old 01-25-15, 08:32 AM
  #17  
jbchybridrider 
Senior Member
 
jbchybridrider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: adelaide, australia
Posts: 2,558
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 136 Post(s)
Liked 24 Times in 13 Posts
Just when you think disc's are taking over V brakes make a comeback.

jbchybridrider is offline  
Old 01-25-15, 09:42 AM
  #18  
Lazyass
Senior Member
 
Lazyass's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: NC
Posts: 8,183

Bikes: Vintage steel, aluminum, modern carbon disc, single speed, MTB's, the works

Mentioned: 58 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1909 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by cpach View Post
They also reportedly have better tire clearence.
Doesn't look like they have much more clearance to me. For a two post setup I'd rather have regular v brakes. More clearance and a simpler design. Weight seems to be around the same. Not sure how these direct pull brakes are better than V's.
Lazyass is offline  
Old 01-25-15, 10:06 AM
  #19  
grolby
Senior Member
 
grolby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: BOSTON BABY
Posts: 9,632
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 235 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
I suspect another reason for this "improvement" is to shut out the specialty brake makers like Zero Gravity, KCNC, Planet X, and the like. You can't use them if you can't mount them.
That doesn't make a lot of sense. They'll just start making direct mount brakes themselves. Seems unlikely that it's an attempt to shut anyone out.
grolby is offline  
Old 01-25-15, 10:08 AM
  #20  
grolby
Senior Member
 
grolby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: BOSTON BABY
Posts: 9,632
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 235 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Lazyass View Post
Doesn't look like they have much more clearance to me. For a two post setup I'd rather have regular v brakes. More clearance and a simpler design. Weight seems to be around the same. Not sure how these direct pull brakes are better than V's.
Conventional v-brakes are difficult to make road levers for. I suppose mini-v brakes are a solution to that, but the other problem with v-brakes is that they just don't modulate as well as calipers.
grolby is offline  
Old 01-25-15, 10:09 AM
  #21  
Jiggle
Senior Member
 
Jiggle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Somewhere in TX
Posts: 2,269

Bikes: BH, Cervelo, Cube, Canyon

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 211 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by Lazyass View Post
Doesn't look like they have much more clearance to me. For a two post setup I'd rather have regular v brakes. More clearance and a simpler design. Weight seems to be around the same. Not sure how these direct pull brakes are better than V's.
Exactly what I was thinking when I first saw a direct mount brake. But that would allow me to use the $12 926AL solution, and Big Carbon can't allow that!
Jiggle is offline  
Old 01-25-15, 10:10 AM
  #22  
Jiggle
Senior Member
 
Jiggle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Somewhere in TX
Posts: 2,269

Bikes: BH, Cervelo, Cube, Canyon

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 211 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by grolby View Post
Conventional v-brakes are difficult to make road levers for. I suppose mini-v brakes are a solution to that, but the other problem with v-brakes is that they just don't modulate as well as calipers.
Modulation isn't an issue at all. The problem with current mini-v designs is that it's hard to get them unhooked for a wheel change. But that could be fixed with a little engineering.
Jiggle is offline  
Old 01-25-15, 10:49 AM
  #23  
grolby
Senior Member
 
grolby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: BOSTON BABY
Posts: 9,632
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 235 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Jiggle View Post
Modulation isn't an issue at all.
Disagree.

Release for wheel changes is indeed another problem with v's.
grolby is offline  
Old 01-25-15, 11:16 AM
  #24  
jimc101
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: West Yorkshire, United Kingdom
Posts: 5,447
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 289 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
I suspect another reason for this "improvement" is to shut out the specialty brake makers like Zero Gravity, KCNC, Planet X, and the like. You can't use them if you can't mount them.
How is another form factor for brakes shutting anyone out? if anything, it's giving aftermarket suppliers a chance to increase their product line, and bring more innovation to the market.

For the brands listed, Planet X is a bike manufacture, not a brake maker, they will follow the industry for brake mounts, KCNC have plenty of other product lines, and aren't a pure brake maker.
jimc101 is offline  
Old 01-25-15, 11:21 AM
  #25  
rpenmanparker 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
rpenmanparker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 28,406

Bikes: 1990 Romic Reynolds 531 custom build, Merlin Works CR Ti custom build, super light Workswell 066 custom build

Mentioned: 103 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6343 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by jimc101 View Post
How is another form factor for brakes shutting anyone out? if anything, it's giving aftermarket suppliers a chance to increase their product line, and bring more innovation to the market.

For the brands listed, Planet X is a bike manufacture, not a brake maker, they will follow the industry for brake mounts, KCNC have plenty of other product lines, and aren't a pure brake maker.
Just sayin' that these little guys will have to redevelop their product line to offer the direct mount brakes. That will be costly for a company that doesn't have any guaranteed OEM sales.
__________________
Robert

Originally Posted by LAJ View Post
No matter where I go, here I am...
rpenmanparker is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.