"Experimental:" Sturmey AW + 2 cogs = interesting machine
05-05-06, 05:54 PM
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"Experimental:" Sturmey AW + 2 cogs = interesting machine
I had some time to kill today, so I put to a test a long-time idea of mine: Can a two-cog derailer gear mechanism be added to a Sturmey AW hub without the need for a threaded driver or a Cyclo converter?
The answer is yes. With two offset cogs placed back-to back to each other on the three-spline driver with a single Sturmey spacer, it certainly is possible.
I just finished adding this system to my beater machine, a 1969 Robin Hood, with considerable success.
Some permanent modification is required however, to the derailer hanger (in this case, a Raleigh-badged Suntour V-series rear mechanism), and the hanger nut at the dropout. As Raleigh used (until '77-'78 or so) a slightly narrower dropout slot for Sturmey-Archer hub axles, the two alignment nubs must be ground down, and the hanger nut must be trimmed a tad to slide into the dropout.
As for the cogs, I found that the width of two S/A cogs butted up together would not sufficently take up the width of the driver, and the addition of one of the S/A spacers would not allow the lockring to sit properly. Although one could conceivably grind down the washer to proper width, I compromised by using a slightly thinner (not an SA, but not one of the current 3/32" chain-compatible Shimano cogs either) cog from my parts pile on the inside, then an SA cog, followed by the washer and lockring.
I regretfully used a cheap Shimano MTB friction lever to operate this thing, but it was the only non-indexed, handlebar-mount thumb shifter I had on hand. Is there any classic, decent-looking, chrome bar-mount lever out there that one might suggest I use instead? I went against a stem shifter, for I wished both the Sturmey and derailer shifters to be in close reach of my right hand.
The system performs very well, I must say. Once or twice, the chain skated one cog while engaging back to the smaller cog, but I expected that the wide 1/8" chain might do this, for it's a bit slower to engage then 3/32" chain. Hardly noticeable when it does happen, really. Other then this, it performs perfectly.
Pictures enclosed. Had yet to run the derailer cable in the first three photos.
Comments and questions encouraged.
Take care,
-Kurt
The answer is yes. With two offset cogs placed back-to back to each other on the three-spline driver with a single Sturmey spacer, it certainly is possible.
I just finished adding this system to my beater machine, a 1969 Robin Hood, with considerable success.
Some permanent modification is required however, to the derailer hanger (in this case, a Raleigh-badged Suntour V-series rear mechanism), and the hanger nut at the dropout. As Raleigh used (until '77-'78 or so) a slightly narrower dropout slot for Sturmey-Archer hub axles, the two alignment nubs must be ground down, and the hanger nut must be trimmed a tad to slide into the dropout.
As for the cogs, I found that the width of two S/A cogs butted up together would not sufficently take up the width of the driver, and the addition of one of the S/A spacers would not allow the lockring to sit properly. Although one could conceivably grind down the washer to proper width, I compromised by using a slightly thinner (not an SA, but not one of the current 3/32" chain-compatible Shimano cogs either) cog from my parts pile on the inside, then an SA cog, followed by the washer and lockring.
I regretfully used a cheap Shimano MTB friction lever to operate this thing, but it was the only non-indexed, handlebar-mount thumb shifter I had on hand. Is there any classic, decent-looking, chrome bar-mount lever out there that one might suggest I use instead? I went against a stem shifter, for I wished both the Sturmey and derailer shifters to be in close reach of my right hand.
The system performs very well, I must say. Once or twice, the chain skated one cog while engaging back to the smaller cog, but I expected that the wide 1/8" chain might do this, for it's a bit slower to engage then 3/32" chain. Hardly noticeable when it does happen, really. Other then this, it performs perfectly.
Pictures enclosed. Had yet to run the derailer cable in the first three photos.
Comments and questions encouraged.
Take care,
-Kurt
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05-05-06, 06:50 PM
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I had an old JC Higgins 9 speed with the knockoff S-A 3 speed hub and a Benelux derailleur. The hub had a broken axle, so I replaced the rear wheel with a regular 3 speed one. I wish I had it all back, but it is long gone. I was in the 5th grade when I got the bike for free.
05-05-06, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Rabid Koala
I had an old JC Higgins 9 speed with the knockoff S-A 3 speed hub and a Benelux derailleur. The hub had a broken axle, so I replaced the rear wheel with a regular 3 speed one. I wish I had it all back, but it is long gone. I was in the 5th grade when I got the bike for free.
Take care,
-Kurt
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05-07-06, 06:43 PM
#4
holyrollin'
Neat idea. What were the tooth counts on the cogs you used, and did you find them to be good choices? I'm not requesting gear-inch info, just your seat-of-the-pants impression. Will you be experimenting further with this setup?
05-07-06, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by FlatTop
Neat idea. What were the tooth counts on the cogs you used, and did you find them to be good choices? I'm not requesting gear-inch info, just your seat-of-the-pants impression. Will you be experimenting further with this setup?
I hope to try a 17/21 or 17/22 setup if I can locate a pair of suitable cogs...for those times when I want to "spin-start..."
-Kurt
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05-07-06, 08:29 PM
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3 tooth count differential
The 17 and 22 cogs would give several near duplicate gears. A 3 tooth count difference gives you a much more useable range w/ no near duplicates. YMMV according to your conditions.
Kurt, I very much like the look of the Suntour / Raleigh derailleur and plan on putting one on my 3 speed Sprite hotrod.
Robert
Kurt, I very much like the look of the Suntour / Raleigh derailleur and plan on putting one on my 3 speed Sprite hotrod.
Robert
05-07-06, 08:48 PM
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Kurt,
Nicely done! Brings back memories of my second-favorite commute to work bike 35 years ago: Raleigh Twenty folder with a 3-speed Cyclo sprocket and Huret Allvit derailleur. Well, it's what I had available on the workbench at the time, and I was looking for strength should I go down in a traffic situation.
Rode TOSRV 76 on it - wearing a suit, bow tie and bowler hat. Smoked a pipe almost the whole way down to Portsmouth.
Probably would have kept it if the boss hadn't tempted me with that white/gold pinstripe Sports.
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Nicely done! Brings back memories of my second-favorite commute to work bike 35 years ago: Raleigh Twenty folder with a 3-speed Cyclo sprocket and Huret Allvit derailleur. Well, it's what I had available on the workbench at the time, and I was looking for strength should I go down in a traffic situation.
Rode TOSRV 76 on it - wearing a suit, bow tie and bowler hat. Smoked a pipe almost the whole way down to Portsmouth.
Probably would have kept it if the boss hadn't tempted me with that white/gold pinstripe Sports.
Syke
Deranged Few M/C
05-10-06, 11:42 AM
#8
holyrollin'
I've just realized three things:
That I have the necessary parts in my stash to duplicate this project, including a few bikes doing nothing much and suitable to be converted to a Sturmey Archer/derailleur 6 speed.
That those extra ratios would come in handy on heavier and more heavily-loaded bikes,
and finally, that I didn't want to see this very cool post slip off into limbo simply because the traffic is getting a bit heavier here in Classic&Vintage.
That I have the necessary parts in my stash to duplicate this project, including a few bikes doing nothing much and suitable to be converted to a Sturmey Archer/derailleur 6 speed.
That those extra ratios would come in handy on heavier and more heavily-loaded bikes,
and finally, that I didn't want to see this very cool post slip off into limbo simply because the traffic is getting a bit heavier here in Classic&Vintage.
05-10-06, 11:49 AM
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Why stop there? Go for a dual chainring up front too. 
I think downtube shifters would be a better idea than the thumbies.
I think downtube shifters would be a better idea than the thumbies.
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05-10-06, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by USAZorro
Why stop there? Go for a dual chainring up front too.
I think downtube shifters would be a better idea than the thumbies.
I think downtube shifters would be a better idea than the thumbies.
There's just enough room under the guard for the two-speed though, although one of the Raleigh full-length "wing" guards would allow for additional cogs, for they're open on the left side.
Downtube? On an upright-bar tourer? Ridiculous. The beauty of the S-A three speed is the thumb-action trigger - always there right next to the grip. After looking over the bar though, I can't see any other possible mounting for the rear derailer lever other then a Suntour barcon - which sounds pretty good, in fact!
P.S.: If I was looking for excess, I would have used a Sturmey S5-2 with a threaded driver, a Shimano 8 speed freewheel and a triple up front. Nope, even better - a TA Pro 5 vis "Cyclotourist" with four chainrings. 160 gears. I dare say I'd have every one of those "more-gears-are-better" Craigslisters in town going nuts for such a machine at the tune of $600.
Originally Posted by USAZorro
I've just realized three things:
That I have the necessary parts in my stash to duplicate this project, including a few bikes doing nothing much and suitable to be converted to a Sturmey Archer/derailleur 6 speed.
That those extra ratios would come in handy on heavier and more heavily-loaded bikes,
and finally, that I didn't want to see this very cool post slip off into limbo simply because the traffic is getting a bit heavier here in Classic&Vintage.
That I have the necessary parts in my stash to duplicate this project, including a few bikes doing nothing much and suitable to be converted to a Sturmey Archer/derailleur 6 speed.
That those extra ratios would come in handy on heavier and more heavily-loaded bikes,
and finally, that I didn't want to see this very cool post slip off into limbo simply because the traffic is getting a bit heavier here in Classic&Vintage.
Take care,
-Kurt
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05-10-06, 05:03 PM
#11
holyrollin'
Originally Posted by cudak888
...Haha - that ruins the beauty of the minimum of gears and levers. I wanted the extra cog to serve mainly as an overdrive, nothing more. You can't stick an FD under the chainguard either...
Originally Posted by cudak888
...I assume you'll be grinding up a Shimano cassette then? Works, but IMHO, the grinding defeats the simple beauty of putting this system together without any major modifications (save for grinding the derailer hanger tabs, if you're mounting the system to a pre-'77 Raleigh dropout)...
Thanks for sharing. I never guessed this was possible, let alone a fairly simple adaptation.
Last edited by FlatTop; 05-10-06 at 05:10 PM.
05-10-06, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by FlatTop
A good notion, but taken another step, couldn't the extra cog serve instead as an underdrive ratio on my big, heavy Columbia Sport III with SA hub?
Originally Posted by FlatTop
There's a lot to be said in defense of simplicity, but the Shimano cassettes are absolutely everywhere, and if grinding doesn't fillet one, I have access to a bandsaw.
-Kurt
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05-11-06, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by cudak888
Haha - that ruins the beauty of the minimum of gears and levers. I wanted the extra cog to serve mainly as an overdrive, nothing more. You can't stick an FD under the chainguard either.
There's just enough room under the guard for the two-speed though, although one of the Raleigh full-length "wing" guards would allow for additional cogs, for they're open on the left side.
Downtube? On an upright-bar tourer? Ridiculous. The beauty of the S-A three speed is the thumb-action trigger - always there right next to the grip. After looking over the bar though, I can't see any other possible mounting for the rear derailer lever other then a Suntour barcon - which sounds pretty good, in fact!
P.S.: If I was looking for excess, I would have used a Sturmey S5-2 with a threaded driver, a Shimano 8 speed freewheel and a triple up front. Nope, even better - a TA Pro 5 vis "Cyclotourist" with four chainrings. 160 gears. I dare say I'd have every one of those "more-gears-are-better" Craigslisters in town going nuts for such a machine at the tune of $600.
There's just enough room under the guard for the two-speed though, although one of the Raleigh full-length "wing" guards would allow for additional cogs, for they're open on the left side.
Downtube? On an upright-bar tourer? Ridiculous. The beauty of the S-A three speed is the thumb-action trigger - always there right next to the grip. After looking over the bar though, I can't see any other possible mounting for the rear derailer lever other then a Suntour barcon - which sounds pretty good, in fact!
P.S.: If I was looking for excess, I would have used a Sturmey S5-2 with a threaded driver, a Shimano 8 speed freewheel and a triple up front. Nope, even better - a TA Pro 5 vis "Cyclotourist" with four chainrings. 160 gears. I dare say I'd have every one of those "more-gears-are-better" Craigslisters in town going nuts for such a machine at the tune of $600.
If you REALLY want excess, you could do the above with a Rohloff 14 speed hub - which a quick calculation tells me would have 448 gears. (14 x 8 x 4).
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05-11-06, 06:50 PM
#14
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Originally Posted by USAZorro
The FD and the downtube shifter suggestions were both jokes.
If you REALLY want excess, you could do the above with a Rohloff 14 speed hub - which a quick calculation tells me would have 448 gears. (14 x 8 x 4).
If you REALLY want excess, you could do the above with a Rohloff 14 speed hub - which a quick calculation tells me would have 448 gears. (14 x 8 x 4).
cudak888 - well done conversion, always enjoyed seeing the fruits of a bit of imagination and an inventive nature.
05-11-06, 07:42 PM
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Not a bad idea, considering having the SA instantly multiplies all your cog speeds x3. You could easily pull off a full 12 speeds with just four cogs and one chain ring if you had the AW in there. Not sure that would fit right, but I'm sure someone out there has dreamed it up some way or another.
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05-12-06, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by SirMike1983
Not a bad idea, considering having the SA instantly multiplies all your cog speeds x3. You could easily pull off a full 12 speeds with just four cogs and one chain ring if you had the AW in there. Not sure that would fit right, but I'm sure someone out there has dreamed it up some way or another.
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05-12-06, 01:38 PM
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Since the ratio progression on an AW is 0.75 - 1.00 - 1.33, I would like a 2-speed combination which split the difference, e.g. 16-18, which would yield a respectable gear progression of 43-49-58-65-77-87 with a 40T chainring and 26" wheels.
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Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
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Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
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"Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." --Theodore Roosevelt
Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
05-12-06, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by USAZorro
... If you REALLY want excess, you could do the above with a Rohloff 14 speed hub - which a quick calculation tells me would have 448 gears. (14 x 8 x 4).
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Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
"Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." --Theodore Roosevelt
Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
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05-12-06, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by John E
I have seen a 90-speed bike (Sturmey-Archer 5-speed hub, 6-speed cogset, and triple chainring).
How long would it take to sequence through the lot of them?
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05-12-06, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by SirMike1983
How long would it take to sequence through the lot of them?
-Kurt
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05-12-06, 06:14 PM
#21
holyrollin'
Sheldon Brown's OTB with 63-speed drivetrain: https://sheldonbrown.org/otb.html
The seven cogs on a Sturmey Archer hub must be a bit of a letdown after the 90-speed, but I've started to get antsy waiting for someone to post this admittedly offtrack link. Like waiting for the other shoe to drop.
The seven cogs on a Sturmey Archer hub must be a bit of a letdown after the 90-speed, but I've started to get antsy waiting for someone to post this admittedly offtrack link. Like waiting for the other shoe to drop.
05-12-06, 07:07 PM
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Sixty-three speeds? *ZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzz*
That's nothing compared to the maximum gear ratio I can think of, a 224 speed machine. Essentially a Sturmey Sprinter 7 w/splined driver, 8 speedShimano freewheel, and a quadruple TA Cyclotourist crankset.
Yes, some folks have managed to get four chainrings on the TA Cyclotourist, I hear. Must be a chainline nightmare.
-Kurt
That's nothing compared to the maximum gear ratio I can think of, a 224 speed machine. Essentially a Sturmey Sprinter 7 w/splined driver, 8 speed
Yes, some folks have managed to get four chainrings on the TA Cyclotourist, I hear. Must be a chainline nightmare.
-Kurt
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Last edited by cudak888; 07-13-20 at 05:10 PM.
05-12-06, 09:12 PM
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The largest number of gears I ever had was 36: 53-49-45 / 14-16-18-20 on the Sturmey-Archer AW I mentioned earlier. Unfortunately, there were lots of redundancies and plenty of uselessly high gears. What would have made more sense is a 24-speed, viz: 42-40 or 40-38 / 14-16-18-20 with the AW.
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Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
"Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." --Theodore Roosevelt
Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
05-12-06, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by cudak888
Sixty-three speeds? *ZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzz*
That's nothing compared to the maximum gear ratio I can think of, a 224 speed machine. Essentially a Sturmey Sprinter 7 w/splined driver, 8 speed Shimano freewheel, and a quadruple TA Cyclotourist crankset.
That's nothing compared to the maximum gear ratio I can think of, a 224 speed machine. Essentially a Sturmey Sprinter 7 w/splined driver, 8 speed Shimano freewheel, and a quadruple TA Cyclotourist crankset.
Shimano has never made an 8-speed freewheel, and freewheels don't fit splined drivers.
If you really want to get the big numbers, you use a second internal gear hub as a jackshaft.
The Sprinter would be a poor choice for this due to its fragility and the difficulty of obtaining spare parts.
Now you could use a threaded driver on a Sturmey-Archer 5-speed hub, stick an 8-speed freewheel onto that. If you used one at the wheel, another at the jackshaft, you would have theoretically 40 at the wheel X 40 at the jackshaft X 3 chainrings...4800 speeds.
If you could figure a way to extend the axle past all of the sprockets, you could use Rohloff 14 speeds instead...
My 63 speed actually works.
Sheldon "Mostly Riding Nexus 8 Speeds These Days" Brown
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05-12-06, 10:39 PM
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Suntour made some nice friction thumb shifters in the early days of MTB (early mid 80s). Good luck finding some used, one of my coworkers keeps wanting to buy the two sets I have off the bikes I have them mounted on.