OK - so I started to build the Palo Alto tonight, and went to install the headset first. I have a box full of take-off threaded headsets, all from Japanese bikes. I pick the nicest, shiniest one and go to set the crown race. Plunk - it drops right on, and is obviously too big in ID to fit snugly on the steerer tube. I try all of my crown races in succession - same deal.

What gives? According to my caliper, it looks like the ID of all my available crown races is about 1.065", which converts roughly to 27mm. As you might recall, the frame is Italian made from Columbus SL tubing. Do I need something special for this? Anyone have a crown race that is slightly smaller?

bossman

sheldon's site refers to italian crown race inside diameters as coming in 2 sizes : 26.5mm and 27.0mm . maybe an ISO sized crown race will work (26.4mm)

info found here: https://sheldonbrown.com/gloss_ha-i.html#headset

The headsets from the Japanese bikes probably use the JIS (Japanese Industry Standard) size headsets, at least for the crown race, and the Palo Alto may use the ISO standard (or the smaller of the two Italian standards as mentioned above). JIS inside diameter for a crown race is 27.0mm, the ISO inside diameter is 26.4mm. Here's a link to Sheldon's site showing the different dimensions: https://sheldonbrown.com/gloss_ha-i.html#headset

Thats the BMZ frame? It almost definitely is meant to take an italian threaded headset...mine is. A standard ISO headset/crown race will work fine.

Yeah - the BMZ frame. Ok, so all my Japanese headsets are JIS then. FWIW, the top threaded caps screw on fine to the fork, so the fork threads don't seem to be different - just the crown race.

Questions - can I just use a ISO crown race with JIS headset cups/bearings? Where can I get one? If not, are ISO headsets commonly available? Who has them? A quick search of Performance and a few other vendors shows 1" threaded headsets, but they do not state ISO/JIS.

EDIT: A quick Google reveals that ISO headsets are pretty common, indeed. What I'd like to know is if I can use the ISO races with the JIS cups, mainly because I have a "special" JIS headset with sentimental value that I'd really, really like to use.....

Yes, the new 1" threaded headsets commonly available will be ISO-

Yes the cups *generally* will not be a fit issue on a swapped-in crownrace, though there are occasional misfits. Look at biketoolsetc.com, they sell single spare crown races for (mostly) Tange HS in both 27 and 26.4.

Perfecto!!

Not sure which one is best, so I shotgunned it and ordered 3 different ones. They're cheap enough....

If mixing JIS crown races and ISO cups is an issue, I guess I'll find out someday, because I have two bikes that have that combination and have been that way for a long time. That happened by way of experiences pretty much the opposite of bigbossman's - I ordered new ISO headsets only find that their crown races wouldn't fit on the forks I wanted use. So, I just polished up the old JIS crown races and installed the rest of the ISO headsets. No apparent issues so far.

Of course, this occurred before I discovered that JensonUSA has an entire page of just crown races, and that I had overlooked the option box for selecting either 26.4 or 27.0 when ordering the headsets.

You may have had a headset that used some of both standards, I believe it's fairly common for a fork to have the base of the steerer tube where the crown race seats sized for a JIS 27.0mm crown race and for the frame's head tube to be sized for ISO cups. Even if the head tube is sized for JIS, it can usually be sanded or reamed out enough to make ISO cups fit (it's only a few tenths of a millimeter difference in diameter).............But if you have a headset that's JIS-sized in the crown race and bearing cups, putting those cups in a headtube that's meant for an ISO headset probably won't work because the cups will be too small, you won't have the proper interference fit. Hopefully, the headset that bigbossman wants to use only has the JIS crown race and the bearing cups are ISO-

Well, the cups fit snug, but I can press them in by hand. I'm assuming it's because the frame had been previously built up - bad assumption?

If you can press them in by hand, they must be JIS cups. They might work, though, since you say they're "snug" -

When I did the Triplecross build last spring I ended up using cups from one headset, crown race from another, and loose balls to make it work. Do what you gotta do........
Top

Yeah, that's the assumption - I have a JIS headset (older Japanese) and a frame that needs an ISO headset.

I must be getting confused, as I thought the cups were the same and the crown race was only different in the ID.

I'm thinking that the best bet might be to buy a new ISO headset. They're not too expensive and I'd hate to ruin the frame over something so trivial. The only part of the old headset that I really want to use is the top race cap that encloses the top bearings, and it should fit ok over an ISO cup.

I agree, I think you'd be better off with an ISO headset. Basically you're getting a "slip fit" (can be installed by hand) with the JIS cups instead of an "interference fit" (must be pressed in), and of course it's supposed to be an interference fit. BTW, here's a link to the Park site, scroll down to the chart showing the different headtube and headset cup dimensions. The ISO standard is referred to as "Euro" on the chart:
https://www.parktool.com/repair/readhowto.asp?id=68

Sorry you are experiencing difficulties, usually it's not so difficult: the differences in the pressed-in CUP and RACE dimensions between the JIS headset parts and ISO parts are usually so small that there is no problem. As you see in the Park chart, there is a tolerance range for JIS and ISO, so you can get anything from the best case (29.9mm vs 30.0mm) to the worst case (29.8mm vs 30.1). That's big enough (.3mm) to scotch the fit. Your best bet is to buy the new HS that fits tight all 3 places where it's pressed. But for you who are strapped or stubborn, the word is "knurling"...it can raise the metal enough to improve a loose fit. Mechanics have used it many a time, but usually never tell. You can do a "dirty" job with a sharp pin-punch, just make sure to support the part(s) to prevent deforming it...works on the crown race shoulder, too. BTW, check the inside of the headtube to make sure it isn't slightly deformed or over-agressively prepped, that can make a sloppy fit, too.

I just wanted to do a "for what it's worth" follow-up on my experiences with the JIS-ISO thing with the Palo Alto.

My solution to the problem outlined in the initial post was to drop in a ISO crown race and use a set of good JIS cups I had on hand. I noted that the cups were easy to slip-fit by hand, and "well biked" recommended in post #15 that I might be better off putting in the proper ISO cups. Impatient to get this on the road (and being cheap), I went ahead and used the JIS cups in this Italian frame.

Well, it didn't really work for me. In the 2 weeks I've been riding it, I've had a devil of a time getting and keeping the headset adjusted. Either it was too tight, or if loosened enough to allow proper feel it was sloppy and the steerer tube had noticeable play. In fear of damaging the steerer and making this beautiful fork useless, I stopped riding it and went in search of the proper headset.

I called biketoolsetc and spoke with a very helpful fellow. I told him my problem, and he suspected that when the adjustable cup was properly adjusted, the fixed cups were rocking in the frame because they were too loose. So, I took his recommendation and bought a Tange Levin ISO headset.

I just finished installing it, and what a difference. Easy to install (but needed to be pressed in), easy to adjust, and spins smooth as greased glass with no play at all.

Problem solved, and lesson learned.

That's cool that it's all worked out, bigbossman, I had wondered what the final result with the headset issue was. That's one beautiful bike.......Btw, one of my regular riding buddies rides a Palo Alto bike. He did many, many tours on the bike in the '80's and '90's and he still rides it; he talks occasionally about getting a new bike, but it ain't happened yet-

Yeah - it's been a real PITA, fooling with and trying to make that headset work. Oh, well.

The new Tange is the only Japanese part on an otherwise all-Italian bike. I tried trading my way into a vintage Campy headset, but came up short on desireable trade goods. What'cha gonna do, eh? I like the Tange, so I'm calling it "good" - the bike is officially DONE.

Now, to work on the Pinarello........

That's one of the reasons I like BTE. Always helpful and fair to deal with.

Glad to see your getting the final bugs worked out on the PA.

Yeah - I spend a bit of money there. I had actually found a cheaper (by half) Tange Prestige headset somewhere else, but I bought his because he deserved the sale. Plus, we had a nice conversation about bikes in general, so he got me out of 15 mins worth of work.......

Levin is a better substitute (IMO) for a Record headset than the Prestige anyways. You done good bigbossman.

It is smooth. I confess - I don't know too much about headsets, having never bought one. All my building experience has been on Japanese bikes, and they all have (it seems!) interchangeable headsets. I've always gotten by with recycling and re-using from my scrounge pile.

The only thing I failed to consider was stack height - just forgot plain forgot about it. I got lucky with the Levin, although it was about as close a call as it could be. Good thing the lock washer is recessed into the adjustable cup!!

Also - the Columbus fork did not have a groove for the lock washer tab. I had been using a 3 notch lock ring on the other headset, but it was too thick to use with the Levin. So, took my dremel and just knocked down the threads on the back side a little bit and squared up the edges of the new groove so the tabbed lock washer would fit nice and snug.

Worked great, but I wasn't real jazzed about taking a dremel to this fork.....

That's why I said good choice. I agonized quite a bit looking for a headset for my Raleigh professional. It was between Record and Levin (I was fortunate enough to have some knowledgeable people advise me about stack height.). I went with the Levin because I'm a cheapskate. It worked quite well.