I spent the day digging through the internet on the differences between hub motors, and i'm pretty sure I want a geared hub.

The bike path i'll be riding has a couple of steep hills, so i'll be doing a E-Bike kit, most likely the geared type, as I don't want to have the extra drag for most of the ride, just for the sake of a couple of hills.

Questions:

Is the 48v-52v 1,000 watt range available in a geared hub?

Can the geared hubs accommodate a disc brake as well as normal cassette?

I'm 6'2" @240lbs. Will a geared hub be able to pull me up a fairly steep hill of @1/4 mile long? This hill comes at the end of my ride, when I simply don't have the steam to even do part of the hill.

Are there any super high output gearless motors like hi-powerbikes has, that don't have any perceivable drag? Their bikes are so high output that it would seem that you would definitely feel the magnets pulling against you.

Oh, and i'm hoping to find a complete kit for whichever way I go.
Also, this is going on a cross tour GT mountain bike.

Robert

I don't have any perceivable drag on my bike with my 350 BionX set up, But it certainly wouldn't pull me up anything more than 7% hill without me pedaling fairly hard...

There does exist a high powered 1,000 watt geared rear hub that takes a modern Shimano 7 or 8 speed older 9 spline type cassette. I remember seeing a post about it on the endless-sphere forum. It is like one of only two rear hubs out there that take a cassette instead of a screw on freewheel. It is very expensive if I remember correctly. I'll do a quick search over there and see if I can find the thread.

Found it, not sure how you actually buy one, but here is some links for you. The only reason I know about it off the top of my head is because it was one of the options I researched when I first wanted a strong motor just for climbing hills but ended up going with a chain reduced drive instead:

https://www.endless-sphere.com/forums...hp?f=3&t=38825
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/vie...hp?f=4&t=39877

https://www.fusinmotors.com/electric-...wheel-kit.html

Looks to be rated for 500 watts continuous output with a peak output of up to a 1,000 watts for their most powerful model. They are claiming it will climb a 35% grade hill.

Also the fact that you must make inquiry for a price quote is also saying something (make sure you are sitting down when you get the reply e-mail).

It's too bad they don't show the price in advance. That probably means they don't make a heck of a lot of them, and so the chance of getting a complete kit that fits my needs, is less than it will be elsewhere.

I've read that about a couple of setups that are in the 300-500 watt range, but as you mentioned, those aren't going to pull me up much of a steep grade.

But either way, it looks like i'll probably have to do to a gearless setup.

I've been kicking this around for a good year now, and I think i'm just going to have to throw my hat into the ring with an established kit maker, and i'm leaning towards the hi-powercycle guys.
And unfortunately their site says they have a 2-4 week lead time.
I wish I had gotten in gear on this earlier this year.

The solution I ultimately used for a hill climber only motor was to run a second chain on the big 34t granny gear on my rear sprocket spool up to a hub motor mounted on a home-made mount that goes where the right side rear pannier bag would normally sit above the rear wheel sprocket spool on that side of the rear wheel with a 16t six bolt mount sprocket on the left side disk brake mount side of that bare hub motor with no spokes or rim on it (an available aftermarket part that people use to make flip-flop fixie/single speed wheels out of rear hubs designed for a six bolt disk brake mount on the left side of the hub). That made it so the hub-motor was geared down with a 2.125-to-1 gearing ratio through the second chain which doubled the hill climbing torque produced by the hub-motor (a small 250watt front geared hub motor) while cutting its optimal power range speed in slightly more then half so it worked out as a perfect assist (still have to pedal a little bit but its like riding a tandom with a very strong cyclist as an unseen, quiet, and obedient stoker to help you up the hill) when climbing a steep hill at about 7-mph or so because of the gearing down which keeps the little hubby spinning along at a higher speed were it puts out the most power and that power is turned into multiplied torque through the gear down.

Yes, it is true that with the second chain on the big #1 position granny gear cog on the rear I can't shift the main chain to that sprocket or the #2 position sprocket either and just have the top 5 gears out of the 7 gear rear spool I have on that bike but with the extra help on the hills that set-up gives me I don't need them anyway.

I cut out the back side of the right side pannier bags for that bike and put in an elastic band so it snaps over the mount that is welded to the frame and (now permanent) over rear wheel pannier rack and acts as a cover over the motor and its controller and small Li-Poly RC type pack battery which gives me a little over 30 minutes of extra hill climbing power provided I only use it in short bursts to give the pack time to cool. Little off-balance with the weight all to that one side until I put stuff in the left side pannier on the other side of the rear wheel to balance things out and then it is all good and just like running with two pannier bags with a few pounds of stuff in each. Also very stealthy with everything tucked under the right side pannier bag which serves as a cover and you have to look really close to notice the second chain on the rear granny gear sprocket going up into the pannier bag to realize its not all human only powered.


I do understand the desire though to not have to mess around with rigging something like that up and having a dedicated internal geared hub-motor on the market that was geared down more then most and designed specifically to be used only for climbing hills and you can pedal faster then the motor can go when on the flat and then power it off of a small battery and controller that all fit in an under the back of the seat bag or such that has just enough battery juice to give a few short burst of assist up the hills.

See this link on Endless Sphere regarding the MAC (and BMC) geared motors - MAC claimed to be 1000 watts at 48V.https://endless-sphere.com/forums/vie...hp?f=4&t=22103

Monsoon,
Are you in a hurry to get this bike on the road? What kind of mech skills do you have? The reason I ask is, have you ever thought about a mid mount motor? It will allow you to downshift to the lowest gear going up hills. Here's what it looks like (see pic).



I power up most hills with this type of setup. If you want more details, let me know. I personally think this type of setup is superior to a hub motor or a geared hub motor setup.

Here is the bike I built like this.



Phil

Yah, I'm a mid-drive fan as well but for the guy who wants to pedal without using any electric motor power always except when climbing hills the fact that a mid-drive is just as effective in the highest gear as in the lowest gear can often be too much of a temptation and you end up not saving your battery power for when you need it to climb hills (assuming a minimalist light weight battery set-up). Using a second chain and doing a fixed low end gearing to the rear wheel on the electric motor accomplishes the priority of removing the temptation to use the motor except when it is needed for low end power for climbing hills or accelerating from a dead stop with a heavy cargo load because its pointless to use the motor at flat land cruising speed because it doesn't do a thing because it is geared low enough that you are already going faster by pedaling alone then the motor can go.

So long as you can resist the temptation to use a mid-drive on anything but the hills it will work for just a hill climber motor but very few people have that kind of self control and sooner or later they will end up getting a bigger battery and running it most of the time.

So it depends on exactly what one's goals are, and you should build in both negative and positive incentives to match those goals to both push and pull the rider into riding the bike as it was intended rather then being lazy and letting the motor do all the work and not doing their part.

[MENTION=18538]Turbo[/MENTION], thanks for the write-up of your rig. I aprreciate any and all ideas.
Especially since I checked the hi-powerbikes website for indepth pricing, and I was dissapointed to see that the $1400 figure I saw was just the starting point. For anything with solid hill climging torque and battery capacity, it jumps to well over $2k for their kit.
So i'll be doing this one pieces parts at a time.

[MENTION=344587]dilkes[/MENTION], that was a really good link on the MAC and BMC geared hub motors.
I just might do one of those. And from the looks of it, the newest version of the MAC, has the better style composite gears now, which should allow it to handle near 1,500 watts.

What I did manage to pick up from the hi-powerbikes site though, was the info on the latest greatest Li-NMC batteries that they carry, which are even better than the Lifepo4 versions.
So currently my plan will be to use something around a 48-52v @13amp hour capacity version of the Li-NMC batteries.
They're pricey though, and it looks like one will set me back around $700-$800.
But due to only a few hills each ride that i'll need it on, I would be able to get thousands of rides out of one.

[MENTION=326577]usnavystgc[/MENTION], i'm very mechanically inclined, and have done many crazy projects in my day. and if this were winter time here, I might have gone that route. but time is really of the essence for me. I just turned 57, and although I used to be a serious biker back in the day, it's been too long and I need to make as much of this summer as I can before I start getting too far out of shape.

Here is a link to someone on Kijiji.ca who is selling some MAC motors. Can't say if this is a good price and of course there's always the risk of buying privately.https://toronto.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and-s...AdIdZ413712331

That's a pretty good price point, but if anything went wrong i'd be dealing with US>Canada shipping rates.
I can't find it now so I might not have saved it, but last night when I was poking around I found one in the US for less. Might have been a link from that endless-sphere thread that you linked.

I found it. Unfortunately it's a direct from Hong Kong link. But it's a lot less, though.

https://em3ev.com/store/index.php?rou...&product_id=52

well EM3ev is going to sell you much, much higher quality stuff than the other china/Hong Kong retailers. Paul really does a good job. Last I looked, he didn't have a cassette compatible motor.

Bafang CST is a motor you would like (if you need the Cassette). That style motor can be built with either 36/ 48v 500 or 1000 watt, the only difference being the controller (which pushes more amps through the motor providing more power (and in the case of 36 vs 48 volts, they will have different winding to keep the motor from going too fast or two slow)). That Bafang CST motor is about $270 + shipping (which is going to add at least $100 to the cost).

From your tag-line information there I can tell that the bottom bike picture is yours. Is the upper picture one of your builds as well. Also, what 24V 900w motor did you use for your bike in the lower picture? I don't recognize it as any commercial mid-drive kit that I'm familiar with and it looks like a scratch build rather then a kit.

Just curious.

It looks a lot like this one.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Electric-Sco...00936028288%26

thanks, that part about the controller dictating how much wattage is pushed was something I was trying to figure out.

I poked around on EM3ev's site a little bit more, and it does say that the rear motor is cassette compatible up to 7 speeds.

Keep in mind that the majority of hub motors use an older screw on type. Typically these are 7 speed with the smallest tooth being 14 teeth (although there are some other (non Shimano) alternatives that are not of the best quality).

If you want to use the more modern Cassette hubs (where the cassette slides on to splines on the hub), you need one of the newer CST designs, and that takes a little more searching for (look for Bafang CST for instance).

EM3ev is a useful site with good information. As you can see, the MAC motor can be built with different voltages and power ranges. It is the controller that determines the current (AMPS = torque) and the battery that determines speed (Volts = speed). Amps X Vots = Power. To further complicate things, the winding (Turns) in the motor also determine speed, so it is important that the motor/battery/controller are matched together. Otherwise you could get a motor that turns too fast and ends up burning out.

Keep in mind that a "high torque" motor (low number of turns on the wiring) does not really have more torque than a "high speed" motor. Their torque and power is about the same (with the same controller and battery). Its just that the "high speed" motor will not be able to provide a lot of low speed torque without burning up, while the "high torque" motor can operate efficiently at low speeds, but will have a lower top speed.

Yes turbo, both are my builds. The top one is this bike.

I didn't have a close up of the mid drive of my latest build handy. And yes, both are scratch builds but overengineered (because I hate problems). The Motobecane is one I spent a lot of time to try to make it look pretty. The Bianchi is one I just threw together with the idea that I don't really care how it looks but want it to work well (which it did but I have since disassembled it). As for the motor, it is a used Currie scooter motor that I picked up off of Ebay. The beauty of the mid drive build is all the talk of voltage matching, torque considerations, amps (all that and more) is a non issue. Just shift down for more torque, shift up for more speed. It truly is the best of both worlds and very easy on the motor (since the motor is nearly always in its most efficient rpm range).

I am preparing to start marketing this setup thru Falcon EV if anyone is interested, let me know.

Phil

Well I definitely want higher torque.

How well does that Bafang CST compare to the MAC?

As I recall, the motors are pretty similar. The torque comes from the Amps (via the controller), but of course your motor has to be able to handle the power and load without overheating.

Generally I think EM3 and MAC are going to be your most reliable solution, just be aware of the screw on cassette. Plenty of people use BMP motors with no problem, but those Asian vendors, with the exception of EM3, are not very helpful with support.

Here is an article on MAC and comparison to BMC if you want the long answer:
https://www.electricbike.com/bmc-hub-motor-review/

(that is a good site to poke around on).

I'm pretty sure i'm going to go with a MAC 500 watter.

I'm not so sure about EM3 though. I've purchased a bunch of LED lights direct from Asia, and even the "best" vendors have sent me junk, or even the wrong part. And the return shipping is more than the worth of the loss.
With a hub motor, it would make the savings a complete wash.

So I might have to just find the best price I can on a US based vendor, and have them build the wheel too, so I don't have to worry about the screw on vs. slide on cassette.

And besides, I really don't want to wait a month for the shipping either. Once I decide on all the parts, I just want to get it done.

I understand about the Asia thing. Many of them are just distributors of low cost and low quality stuff. Paul at EM3 is different; he has a great reputation, and I have never heard anything bad about him. I'm planning on getting my next battery from him. He is more of a custom E-bike specialist rather than just a wholesaler, and he has very good customer service. Shipping often takes a week, unless of course something is out of stock or needs to be built, which adds to the lead time.

Buying local (or at least the same country) is always good. Got some good contacts in the US for the MAC?

One note on the old style freewheels. They are not all created equal, some are Walmart quality level, others are much better and of the same level of quality or better then when name brand bikes used the old style screw on freewheels before the advent of slide on cassette hubs. Obviously you want one of the better ones, shop around and do some research to find the better ones.