Just as the title states: I'm interested in knowing the hierarchy of C/V frame tubing. What's the best? What's decent, what's low-grade.

Well, that question is more complicated than it might at first seem. A lot depends on the time period you are talking about. From the early days to the late 70's things were relatively consistant. At the bottom there was generic, heavy, I believe low carbon steel that was typically welded into a 40+ lbs bike sold through department stores and auto parts stores and the like. Then there was "house brand" tubing produced by many of the major bicycle manufacturers in house that was lighter, thiner, hi-carbon steel, also refered to as hi-tensile steel and typically brass brazed with lugs. Those bikes were typically in the 30-lbs range with lots of steel components but could build a nice sub 25-lbs bike with aluminum components. Until the 60's or so there were some Italian brands that were considered, at least by the cognoscienti, to be second tier like Tullio and Falck. Then you get into Reynolds and Columbus. Reynolds made a straight gauge 531 tube set which I guess would be the start of the high-end tube sets. Then both Reynolds and Columbus made, I think, three weights of tubing. For Columbus I think it was KP, SL, SP. For Reynolds I'm not sure what the names were. These were all of equivalent quality. The builder would simply use the tubing appropriate for the frame he was building (i.e. - small vs large frame, racing vs touring, or special purpose bikes like time trials and record attempts). In the late 70's things get considerably more complicated. Columbus produced a complete line of tubing. Most commonly seen were Aelle, Gara, Aelle-R, Cromor, SL, SLX, and later TSX. I don't know the Reynolds lineup as well but I'm pretty sure they kept the straight gauge 531, DB 531, and added 753. By the 90's there were all sorts of attempts to make steel competative with the new aluminum frames and shaped tubing became all the rage. I won't even pretend to be able to name those. And of course the Japanese brought out complete lines of tubing as extensive and as good a quality as Columbus.

Well, that's my best guess. I'm sure the real experts will be along shortly to correct me and expand on what I said here and post some links to catalogs.

Oh, BTW - I would say that any of these tube sets except for the heavy gas pipe crap used on the department store bikes. Even the relatively thin walled oem hi-tensile tubing manufactured by the bike companies is not bad stuff.

don't forget Tange

Also, some companies like Miyata made their own tubing.

Yeah, I tend to be rather Euro-centric. I edited my post to at least mention the Japanese. They made some fine tubing as well.

Vitus and Dedacciai are also names worth knowing. TrueTemper OX is also reportedly good tubing (seamed?), but I've never owned a bike made with it.

When did Dedacciai show up? They do make nice tubing but I've considered them a modern company. My Bianchi is Dedacciai oem'd through Bianchi as 'CromoLite'.

This page has a few basics on tubing.

Generally, if you stay away from the hi-tensile stuff, you're not so bad off.

Columbus Reynolds Ishiwata Tange True Temper Vitus

Cromor Cro-Mo
Zeta 501 Tange 2
Aelle 531 019 DB Tange 1
SL/SP 531 DB 019 TB Prestige
MS/Gilco 531 SL
SLX/SPX 531c
TSX 753


Just a start...others feel free to edit, correct and expand...

=8-)

Dammit....

<table>
<tr><td>Columbus</td><td>Reynolds</td><td>Ishiwata</td><td>Tange</td><td>TrueTemper</td><td>Vitus</td></tr>
<tr><td>Cromor</td><td></td><td></td><td>Cro-Mo</td><td></td><td></td></tr>
<tr><td>Zeta</td><td>501</td><td></td><td>Tange 2</td><td></td><td></td></tr>
<tr><td>Aelle</td><td>531</td><td>019 DB</td><td>Tange 1</td><td></td><td></td></tr>
<tr><td>SL-SP</td><td>531 DB</td><td>019 TB</td><td>Prestige</td><td></td><td></td></tr>
<tr><td>MS-Gilco</td><td>531 SL</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr>
<tr><td>SLX-SPX</td><td>501c</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr>
<tr><td>TSX</td><td>753</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr>
</table>

Nevermind...hey I tried...

=8-(

and Ishiwata

And Ishiwata, and Vitus, and even True Temper. Looking further back, there was Accles & Pollack (eventually bought out by Tube Invenstments, who also owned Reynolds), Durifort, and probably more.

Also consider most if not all tubing suppliers had multiple grades. Tange has five grades, from Tange 5 (low grade) to Tange 1 (best grade).

I would disagree with that statement. As long as you know what you're getting and it's intended purpose (i.e. - you are not looking for a high end racing frameset), there is nothing wrong with thin-walled (1.0-1.2mm or so) hi-tensile steel tubing. That is not the same as the heavy tubing used on department store bikes back in the day. Those frames welded (arc-welded?) and needed very heavy tubing to withstand the weakening inherent in the high temparature welding process. "Good" quality bikes (under $200 in the early 70's) used thin-walled hi-tensile tubing extensively and were typically brass brazed with lugs. The weight penalty is 2-2.5-lbs depending on tubing and frame size. With aluminum rims and crank you can build a very nice riding machine out of a fairly entry level boom period bike that will weigh in around 24.5-lbs. And those bikes often had somewhat more relaxed geometry and longer wheelbases than their high-end racing brethren so for a casual bike for cruising around town, commuting, or riding the MUP they are worth a look.

531! 27 TDF winners can't be wrong.

and Excell and Mannesmann, Oria and Lubelulla AKA "something Italian that used a dragonfly"...but since you asked a simple honest question now you have to be prepared for the complicated, nuanced answer: there's more to tubing quality than: "this is good, and that's crap."
It's often true that the best work of a craftsman or factory will only be made with the "best" or at least the "most expensive" tubing available. But there are so many examples of high grade and wonderfully riding frames built from the "lesser stuff" that you have to keep an open mind about what's "best".
In most cases, it's the decision of the builder as to what's the best tubing for the job at hand: some famous builders (Poliaghi and Eisentraut for example) are noted for mixing tubes from various sources.

Don't forget about Kaisei. They are the successor of Ishiwata and own over half of the Keirin market in Japan.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know, this is the hierarchy of Reynolds tubing. The higher the number the better the tubing:

501
525
531
653
725
753
853

uh, no. Different numbers have different qualities, not necessarily "better".
If you say "The higher the number the higher *cost* of the tubing" you'd be close, but even then it's not necessarily so.

then, what is the correction?

I think what he's trying to say is that the more expensive the tubing, does not necessarily mean it is "better". Some of the more expensive tubing is actually pretty stiff and will give a tougher ride, edging close to that of aluminum. It is a bit lighter, but is also MUCH stiffer. However, that's exactly what timetrial and racing people need.

If you're just doing fitness or triathlon, you'd probably be able to sacrifice 1/2 lbs and get a much more comfortable ride. With Reynolds, I think the only stiff "competition" grade steel is the 853. You can probably get away with a 600 or 700 series tubing and not see any change in performance, but a more comfortable ride. Reynolds 500 series tubing is still good stuff, but primarily found in entry to mid to upper-mid level bikes.

Personally, I think the most important thing is not only what the tubes are made of, but what the fork and stays are made of too. A lot of times you'll get a bike with 531 tubing, but that's only in the main triangle. The fork and stays turn out to be hi-tensile and that adds a lot of weight. Personally, I'd go for a bike with 531 tubes, fork, and stays over a bike that had like 653 for the main triangle but hi-tensile for everything else.

I talk about Reynolds tubing, but that's just because it was referenced earlier. A general guideline is that any Cro-Moly butted tubing is good.

Did we forget Champion?

Anyway, Miyata did "splined" tubesets, where they insert diagonal splines reinforcing the tubes from the inside, and supposedly allowing them to thin the walls down more and make the tubeset lighter.

Standard 4130 Chro moly double butted tubing is pretty darn good too. Not sure if there's a company that makes most of it. I know it was used in airplanes.

I think every tubeset has a purpose. As long as they're roughly equivalent in weight, and equally unlikely to fail, hard to make a case there's a huge difference between any two nice tubesets.

Here's an interesting discussion in that vein from a rec.bicycles.tech posting by Andrew Muzi, via sheldonbrown.com:

Champion tubing is Tange.





4130 is an industry designation for low-carbon CroMoly. It isn't anyone's trademark.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromoly:



Here's a discussion of its properties vis a vis fuselage building.

I believe Excell actually sourced its tubing from Mannesmann. Mannesmann made very high-quality stuff - I believe mainly supplying raw material to other folks who drew it into bike tubing (including Columbus).

Lots of custom builders mix tubing. Sometimes depending on what they were trying to accomplish and sometimes depending on what they had available. Sometimes, the absence of a tubing decal is a tip-off, but not always.