i'm deleting the original post since it is obvious that a good part of you guys aren't even trying to help me out in my query, but rather assume i'm trying to build myself up. while i don't put a label of "pain" on whatever keeps me from riding at a certain pace, there's certainly something there(hmm...maybe a fitness level). and that's what i was trying to get at, but i guess the "macho" forum members aren't willing to concede that they aren't out there subjecting themselves to pain every time they race. maybe they are, but maybe there's something mental to it, some sort of mental transformation of disappointment into pain. All that said, i would delete the whole thread if i knew a way how.

Wow, you are a stud.

OK, Fuji_cyclist, quit screwin around........

well, it seams to me that you just have a higher threashold for pain or your not riding hard enough. If your winning cat 4 races and never hurting than you should be riding cat3. If you end a time trial or a mass sprint and you dont feel like your about to throw up than it wasn't hard enough. I'm not meaning to say that your slacking, just that you probably not riding to your full potential.

mike

For most cyclists extended periods above their LT does equal pain, I know it does for me. You not experiencing this doesn’t mean it’s not valid in others.

For those of us that believe a persons inherent ability to tolerate discomfort will aid them in high intensity aerobic efforts, your post makes our case far more then it debunks it.

I think a better phrase, kind of old school, is the ability to suffer. What is your VO2 Max?

I suppose its not "pain" in the sense that whacking your thumb with a hammer is pain. But it IS your body telling you via severe discomfort that what you are doing is really stressing it and you can't keep it up indefinitely without damaging something. Where the "pain threshold" comes in is you ignoring those warning signals from your body and going ahead and damaging something (muscle fibers in your heart and legs as well as other things). Obviously you "damage" your body just enough so that it has to rebuild itself stronger and more efficient.

Anyway, I'm with you on the idea that "pain" isn't the best term for it, since it doesn't hurt like putting your hand on a boiler plate hurts. But whatever it is is very similar to pain, since it is your body making an attempt to dissuade you from continuing what you're doing. Put your hand on a boiler plate - OW that hurts, I think I'll take my hand off. Ride well above LT until you have lots of lactic acid in your legs - OW this isn't very comfortable, I really want to stop, but I won't yet.

Two athletes of similar physical ability in a competition will end up competing on a mental/pain/suffering level...the one willing to go farther will win.

Neither one will exceed a 100% effort...I despise the concept of giving more than 100%...rather strive to give 100%.

Pain threshold is real...most women are endowed with a greater threshold than men.

Always remember that just because you are faster/stronger than another rider doesn't mean that you are better...they may be getting more out of their abilities than you. I have seen slower riders inspire me with their willingness to suffer...I have also witnessed better riders less willing to suffer than myself.

I have never achieved 100% of my ability but I strive to do better.

Colorado....perhaps you are gifted with both great physical and mental abilities...I will eagerly anticipate the news of your rapid ascent to the pro ranks as you strive to find your pain threshold...perhaps you are blessed with a womens attriibutes in that area.

i always think it's amazing that you can be going all out thinking you're really suffering. legs and lungs are burning, heart is beating between your ears, and then all of a sudden you get a cramp in your calve or something. then you're like "Wow! that REALLY hurts".

I promise you that even the pros feel pain and suffer. You don't think Lance's legs and lungs are burning when he time trials? You know that feeling of lactic in your legs? That's pain. It hurts, thus it's pain.

The original post may have been the dumbest post ever seen round these parts.

agree with everything you said except the statement that women have a higher pain threshold then men. Most modern studies say just the opposite. Many of the previous studies on gender and pain focused on how much painkiller was needed in men and women to get rid of a level 6 pain for example. Men required more, but now we are finding out that that's mainly because men and women processed painkilling medication differently.

This thread reminds me of our ride leader on Sundays. I've nicknamed him "The Machine". Not the pentium whatever type of machine (cause those break down if you look at them too hard) but more of a locomotive, or energizer bunny time machine.

He's older than the rest of us in the group and an awesome person to draft behind on flats (cause he prefers to pull and he has cruise control riding) but hills are not his forte. And yet every week he's there, every time he has at least 5000 ft of climbing planned. This week he wants to do 8000 ft over 50 miles and all of us hearing it are in pain just at the thought of it.

Anyway I'm sure there are a ton of better, stronger faster riders than us out there but when I think of people who defy what they are supposed to be doing, "The Machine" is the man.

genetic freak

Yeah, what does that Lance guy know about cycling anyway? I knew he didn't know what he was talking about. The CAT4 guys need to tell him what the deal is.

Gee, I wish I could have put that tough mind of yours into my weak body during my TT competition last weekend. I raced well over lactate threshold and averaged within 5 beats of my max HR. That was pain, but I guess you wouldn't have felt it. I'd sure like to be like you when I grow up. Having said that, the next day, I ran 30:08 for a 20KM roadrace (which I won), and felt no pain until the final sprint. Have you tried the race of truth - a time trial???? BTW, pain is not the limiting factor in my racing - I will withstand any pain to win, and find that I can easily divert my psyche to running checklists around my body checking my grip force, pedal technique, breathing, position on the bike, and of course picturing my silly ass standing on the high step of the podium! Oh, and yes, I would love to hear your learned definition of pain, because there are only two possibilities here:

1) you are dogging the crap out of your racing, and would probably cause Lance to quiver knowing he would be defeated by you should you ever choose to really push into pain, or

2) you are a mutant mofo, who unlike the rest of us is missing those sensory perceptions that are recognized and defined as pain by us mortal (probably inferior to read your post) beings.

I am not winning cat 4 races yet but I can say something about pain. I may not be strong enough to push a gear an entire race that will allow me to win a race yet (getting there) but I know what it is like to go so hard with the strength that I have to I literally fall down after the race is over. The pain is real, the ability to block it out is what makes you a better cyclist than someone else.

Pain is not a function of speed, it is a function of strength and muscular endurance. As the body gets stronger you get faster and it takes longer to start feeling pain but it is still there. Three months ago I did an itt and I was going 19 average MPH and feeling intense pain, i.e. was now relizing about 9 beats over threshold. Yesterday I ran the same time trial on my road bike (same conditions, wheels, etc) and ran a 23 MPH average and feeling very simular pain. The pain was still the same, even though I was going 4 MPH on average faster.

If you are not feeling pain then you are probably not going fast enough... of course I am just a cat 5 guy trying to keep up... You are probably just substantially stronger than many 1st year racers from what background I will not know. Either that or you can block out pain more than other riders... so when will we see you as a pro?

The more I feel pain the faster I get... the more pain I feel the closer I get to winning races... the more pain that I feel the relization hits what I am doing... training and getting faster... it is good to be alive!

Now off to go cause some more pain on the bike...

Hmm no pain?

In my one duathlon this year on the bike my calves cramped numerous times because I ride with my ankle fairly high. Even with an unplanned loss of a minute(first race of the year, hadn't gotten all the kinks out) I still managed 5th on the bike. But damn, riding with the cramping/possibility of cramps for 6 miles sure hurt a lot.

Time to upgrade Speedy...

ok, like i said earlier, my original post was poorly worded, and prone to being misunderstood. A few concessions i will make cramps=pain, yes. Maybe there is something wrong with me, but I have never in my life had a sensation besides a cramp, related to endrance activities that I would call "pain". I have felt my legs unable to push any harder, i have felt my lungs burn from breathing so hard for so long, but I just can't get a handle on what you guys define as "pain" while on the bike. I'm not trying to come off like an ass, just trying to understand this, for a long time i've wondered, what the hell are they talking about? "pain"? Do you experience an emotional pain when your body will not go any harder and you're starting to fall behind? Is it a physical pain that is solely from muscle cramping? i will not try to make any rash generalizations anymore, but i have read the words of many world record holders in running events, who say that they feel like they are floating on air when they set their records, that they feel like the race is easy, and races are only hard when they aren't doing well relative to how they usually do. I just wonder, is pain a function of disappointment? Does pain exist when you're performing to your absolute potential, or only when you fall short? I'm not purporting to be some cycling badass, i'm new to the sport, just having fun, working hard and reaping any benefits that'll come my way. I'm very familiar with the taste/feeling of lactic acid as well, i just wouldn't call that pain. and i just upgraded to cat 4, hopefully i'll continue to have success at this level and make upgrades in the future.

I like what Don Scholander (olmypic swimming champion from the past): When pain is so intense that the body is screaming at you to slow, the champion pushes deeper into it, while lesser athletes back off to reduce the pain.

58vw: From my years as a running competitor, I can tell you that the level of the pain never lessens. You simply can go faster with that same level of pain. That is what happens in cycling. VO2max typically peaks after about a year of hard training, but lactate threshold takes years to build. The upshot is that as we increase LT, we can more efficiently take advantage of our VO2max, and the same perceived effort, and same feelings of pain simply occur at faster speeds. Most people are wimps, and back off from pain. Winners push deeper into it! Others apparently don't even experience it!!

Like it was said earlier pain is used to describe the feelings you've had, burning lungs, lactic filled legs. It's calling someone a pain in the a#$ they really aren't an actual pain but we sometimes describe them that way.

Seriously though if you are winning Cat 4 races without pushing yourself you need to cat-up unitl you do. If a 4's race is no big deal you might find the 3's a bit harder. I will guarentee you by the time you hit the 1-2's you'll suffer the gulf between a 4 and a 1 is huge.

i'm not trying to troll here at all guys. like i said, i'm not that great, i just never really understood what people were talking about. i do, however, wonder if i would feel a different = "more painful" muscle fatigue if i were to expend myself at low altitude and be able to fuel/deplete my legs more fully. up here, 6-7000 feet i just feel like, oh wow, i can't go any faster, damn.

Colorado...
You want to know what muscle pain feels like?

Hold a 20 pound weight to shoulder height with one arm and hold it for 15 minutes..
Sit with your back against a wall and knees at 90 degrees for 15 minutes [without the chair obviously]..

Seriously... try those and tell me what your body "felt"....
I am assuming you CAN do those for that amount of time... I mean... you're CAT 4 right?
I'm not trying to knock you or anything... but like most people are wondering... are you pushing your body to its maximum? Maybe you're a CAT 1 and don't even know it....

Ok, so when you're holding (i mean i assume you can do it as well) that 20 pound weight at shoulder height, maybe it starts to ache, if you're tough, can you just keep it up despite the ache ("pain"), or is there a point when you are no longer capable of holding it up, despite your "pain tolerance"? That was more or less my point, despite ability to "push through the pain", there is a point when your body cannot go any harder than it is capable of. Holding positions like you talked about are static activities, the same sort of pain will not necessarily follow with a dynamic activity like cycling, maybe it does.

you guys are freakin' great at just trying to answer a kid's question. if you said, "hmm...well in my experience there certainly is some sort of phenomena i would describe as pain" that would have been great and sufficient, but you didn't. in my personal experience, although it is limited, it sure seems that before i feel pain, i simply cannot go any harder/faster, no matter how much i grit my teeth.