79pmooney

A small correction. Klein was making frames that were very stiff (typo - the frames were "stiff" not "still"!) by anybody's standards then or now in 1976. I know. I rode his.

Ben

chaadster

It also reminds me of when ASI, responding to an inquiry I made about the source of the hydroformed steel Breezer tubesets, told me though they were declining to name the producer specifically, there were, at the time, only two factories with the capacity to do it, so it highlights the fact that the production of bike frames is not only highly monopolized by Taiwanese manufacturers, but that there are relatively few who may be able to perform any given process.

chaadster

Thank you, and that's why I was "broadly speaking"; I'm not versed or deep enough to even pretend I know it all! Thanks again!

bikemig 

I'm a steel road guy back from way back. That said, I had and rode for a few years a fuji cross with an Aluminum frame and carbon fork; that bike was sweet. Weighed right around 20 pounds with big tires and handled great. I sold it to a buddy but if I were in the market for a new bike, I'd take a long hard look at aluminum frames. They deliver a lot at a reasonable price point.

gsa103

Fatigue life was always a bit a red herring. The reality is frames rarely if ever suffer a fatigue failure. They get crashed, welds fails, corrosion, etc. I'm quite certain my body will suffer fatigue failure long before my bicycle.

grolby

Not just a "bit" of a red herring. The idea that steel frames will last forever because the material itself has a fatigue limit is absurd. Good luck finding a steel frame that you can actually guarantee will not fail from fatigue. It's almost certain that the regular load cycles on any steel frame exceed the material fatigue limit, especially when you consider welds or brazed joints that might be under a constant load that influences stress in other parts of the structure.

JohnDThompson 

Agreed. I rode Gary Klein's bike when we had him at the factory during the development of Trek's first bonded aluminum frame. We wanted him to see that we weren't infringing on his patent for using oversize aluminum tubing to increase frame stiffness. The tubing on the Trek frame was chosen to emulate the stiffness of a high-end steel frame of that time.

I found the Klein to be difficult to control on rough pavement, which was pretty common around Waterloo, but I only weighed about 140# at the time, and Klein was a considerably heftier guy.

cruiserhead

I think the new hydroformed alloy frames are really good nowadays. I rode a Bianchi recently and had to double take to make sure it wasn't carbon. Rode really nicely.
Always felt Cannondale had great alloy frames. Love the CAAD10. They have the geometry down on that bike.

Maelochs

Add a carbon fork and seatpost and even a bargain aluminum frame is pretty good nowadays.

Gweedo1

Whaaaaat? Steel tubes have been multishaped, even internally reinforced at one time, and double/triple butted since the 80's!!


If there's a "proverbial elephant" in the room, it's both Al's and c/f *limited life spans*, and capacity for catastrophic failure. Steel will not let you down like that. I know a steel bike won't shatter into shards upon a serious impact, nor will one need to ditch the frame if scratched like C/F and if I stay within the yield parameters, steel will cycle on indefinitly, unlike Al which *will* break after "X" amount of cycles. When that is nobody knows.


The only reason I didn't buy a steel bike this time around, is because I could not afford a good one. I got, (settled on) an Al bike because I could get far better components with a top end Al framed bike...(multishaped tubes, double butted, heat treated, smooth welds) than any entry level c/f frame. That being said, the bike rides about the same as my old steel bike.


Nothing beats steel IMO for ride quality, service life, and "elegance". YMMV.

bruce19

Ticking time bomb? My Masi begs to differ. My "other" bike is a steel Guru. I love both bikes and, really, I don't see much difference in ride quality. The both weigh the same to the ounce but the Masi is a 58 and the Guru is a 55. And, the Guru has SRAM Red and Kysrium Elite wheels.

Gweedo1

You have no idea when that AL bike might snap. It is a ticking time bomb. Al frames do not last forever. Steel frames can. They do not fatigue if not stressed above their tensile/yield parameters. Al will eventually fail. I have an Al bike now, and expect it will last me 12-15 years, at which time I will replace it, regardless of how it looks. I know, it started "ticking" the minute I started riding it. YMMV.

79pmooney

John, my ride was just a quick out and back before our club race on brand new, smooth road and I knew right away that bike was way, way too stiff for me and would beat me up on any kind of "texture". And the back-country roads of New England that race promoters preferred were known for their texture. I knew this bike was a breakthrough for some, just not me.

Ben

nemeseri

Personally I always have this problem with constantly thinking about upgrading my bikes. I'm also not sure that 10 years from now I'd need the same bike, with the same geometry, from the same material.

When an aluminum bike fails, it's very rare that it fails in a catastrophic way (carbon fails might be more common or dangerous though, still very rare). Any steel bike can develop cracks in their weldings. You can argue that's something you can repair what is usually true, but it costs so much that I'd rather pick up a new frame.

With life warranty on today's alu frames, I see no reason to go with steel even if I factor in longevity and serviceability. Do they look sexy? Yes. Are they heavy? Yes. Are they expensive? Hell yes.

Dan333SP

I owned a bike similar to your old one, it was a '99 Trek 2500 Alpha SL. Aluminum with carbon fork and a threaded headset. I also had a Cannondale R300 from the same year. Both had similar tubing and frame construction.

Now I have a carbon Madone, but I've also borrowed and ridden a CAAD9 and a CAAD10 which represent much more recent aluminum designs. I can tell you without a doubt that both of the Cannondales were far lighter and more responsive with better ride quality than the 2500. Yea, there were other variables, but this is with largely equivalent wheels, identical tires at about the same pressure, ect.

My low-end carbon bike is still smoother than the CAADs I've ridden, but I wouldn't be surprised if that gap is even narrower with the latest Allez and CAAD12. I'd get a new AL bike in a heartbeat.

Maelochs

This "ticking time bomb" stuff is pure BS. People have been making cars, airplanes, bikes, motorcycles ... all kinds of stuff out of aluminum for decades. its characteristics are well known,.

How many of you can deliver specific factual information about an unabused aluminum frame breaking for no reason. About the same number who could say the same for steel. Some people have strong negative emotions about aluminum bikes for whatever reason, but let's stick to reason, please. There are very few casual riders anywhere in the world who are going to ride a metal-framed bike long enough that its frame will be ready to collapse at any moment.

Anyone who rides enough miles or enough tough terrain where that might be a concern is probably sponsored and getting new bikes annually if not more frequently. There are people who have been riding aluminum-framed mountain bikes for a decade or more without "ticking time bomb" asplosive failures.

Carbon is more fragile, and people who can afford carbon ought to know that, but still people ride CF mountain bikes.

Go see some vintage racing sometime ... watch some 50-year-old aluminum-chassis cars with aluminum engine blocks and heads out doing full-on racing. Then tell them all about how they are driving "ticking time bombs" which are about to "alu"-asplode.

Or drop by and risk your life by taking a ride on my 1983 Cannondale R500 ... if you dare.

Dan333SP

Especially true when they're racing hard in cars that are worth more than $10 million. Definitely not deathtraps.

cruiserhead

totally
thats why I keep my bikes in an underground bunker.
Never know when it's gonna explode.
i have a carbon saddle, bars nd wheels made at the same time as my carbon frame. I bet it will explode all at the same time. When I hear the boom, I know it's time to go shopping again

i hear if a aluminum and carbon bike touch each other they will explode and put a hole in the ground
That's how the Northridge quake started. True story

Trakhak

As was pointed out earlier in this thread, virtually all of the classic lightweight steel bikes touted for longevity were and are outfitted with aluminum rims, seatposts, hubs, handlebars, pedals, etc., etc. Even my lowly Raleigh Blue Streak that I began racing on in 1964 had a few aluminum bits.

And for the sake of the new arrivals to the topic (apologies to the veterans), I hereby trot out yet again the 1995 German Tour magazine frame strength test results.

Steel Kool-Aid drinkers, I sympathize.

12 High-End Frames in the EFBe Fatigue Test

Anyone who wants to argue with the results presented on that page, please do us all a favor and read the entire page, including the details of the testing methods.

Lazyass

edit

bruce19

Not quite as simplistic as you appear to believe......12 High-End Frames in the EFBe Fatigue Test

NormanF

New alloy frames are now built with normal sized down tubing for a compliant and sweet ride.

Oversized tubing gave aluminum bikes a reputation for a harsh "washboard" ride and people didn't like em.

Alloy bikes built within the last eight years or so ride as well as steel and carbon bikes.

And they're now mainstream - for good reason.

PepeM

I thought my aluminum bike was a ticking time bomb too. Then I realized my cranks were not tightened enough.

exime

LOL this made me laugh so hard. "When I hear the boom I know it's time to go shopping again"

Thanks for all the knowledge guys. It's going to be a tough spring purchase with ALU back in the mix

nemeseri

WOW. Thanks for this link. This is amazing.