Ironfish653

I have a old RSX 3x8 setup on my Softride, that runs darn near silently in all the gears. Which is remarkable, considering the extremely short wheelbase that bike has.
Aill the gears clear on the middle chainring, and only the two biggest rub on the big ring, which by that point, is the indicator that you need to drop to the middle ring. I'm usually pretty quick to get out of the granny, once I start coming down the cogs, so I've never seen what it does in small-small

The other thing that was remarked by other riders on a recent large (70+) century, was how quiet the old RSX freehub is while coasting. I could always tell when I was descending around Ultegra bikes, because those things were NOISY.

caloso

My CX bike is pretty silent: 2x10 mishmash of SRAM Red and Rival and Shimano DA

Sy Reene

Well yes, I'm really asking why entire groupsets aren't updated to different spacing. Why bother? I guess that was my original question.. wouldn't cross-chaining be diminished, and remove obstacles to purchase of upgraded groupsets? More profitability with lesser tooling for the manufacturers?

Ok, maybe. I hadn't heard that there was a correlation between speed numbers and longevity of chains, though maybe true.. but does your average 7speed bike buyerm buy that bike because the cogs are cheap?

Yes. Deadly.


There'd be no convincing. Just a phased-in implementation. Whatever the groupsets are called these days, the entire groupsets would just be updated. There wouldn't be backward compatibility. Would this be the first or last time groupsets didn't offer this? Yes, legacy parts and bits could be supported for a while. Yes, the manufacturers could maintain a differentiated product lineup.. there'd still be the steel and plastic 7-speed stuff, up to the Ti, Carbon, and Wifi electronic 11sp stuff. And Yes, the 7 speed stuff would be more upgradeable and seamless adding "speeds" as you upgrade. At least cranks and chains anyway.

canklecat

Ditto, friction shifters.

After the front derailer Shimano Exage thumb shifter became balky on my old Univega's triple I replaced it with a cheap Sunrace SLM10 thumbie friction shifter. I was supposed to be a temporary fix but the friction thumbie works so well I've kept it. Easy to dial out any chain rub.

Just be careful to avoid extreme cross chaining. Since I can dial out chain rub I can hear the slight noise of the chain itself grumbling about any careless gear combos.

Payton1221

I rode last night and using the top 4-5 gears with the big ring and the bottom 4-5 gears with the middle ring, it's 100% silent AND can handle any hills (and some are formidable) in my area! Mathematically, there's no crossover of gearing of these 8-10 gears either as the highest on one ring is still lower than the lowest on the other ring. After doing some more research, I was surprised that the Shimano index shifters on this bike do NOT have a trim position.


But if I do decide to make any changes, the suggestions of a front friction or multi-position index shifter look very appealing.

Iride01 

So what you are saying here is EXACTLY whats happening now. With the exception that you seem to believe 5, 6, 7 and 8 speed cassettes are here to stay and will be profitable to re-design. I don't think they are. Manufacturers are introducing larger gear sets IE, 10 and 11 speed as the cost of technology allows them to market a profitable product.

The manufacturers are always phasing in new product. Compatibility is actually less of a problem than most think. Indexed shifters are the main source of compatibility issues. But in the meantime many 8 speed hubs will happily support 10 speed cassettes. But of course if you change that, chain, chainwheels and derailers might or might not work. But as you stated your new re-manufactured products would not be backward compatible, so it solve nothing for us DIY'rs and frankenbike builders.

As the 10 and 11 speeds saturate the market, they are becoming cheaper to produce and the last few years we've seen them trickle down to the lesser product lines of Shimano, SRAM and other manufacturers. As well we are seeing the lower end models of all the manufacturers showing up with more gears.

It will be hard to find, IMO a new inexpensive road bike from a reputable brand that has less that a 9 speed on the rear. In a few years I expect that we will see nothing less than 10 speeds on them and then 11 speeds on the rear.

The high priced bikes from those manufacturers will have significant improvements to those group sets offered by them. We'll see more electronic shifting trickling down and likely automatic shifting that can let you maintain a particular power output and cadence. Through the years, all those will be phased to lower price bikes as costs again lower.

There is no market for re-designed freewheels and cassettes that is profitable for large companies like Shimano and SRAM. Those companies make their profit from selling to the bicycle manufacturers in huge quantities. The surpluses of their product are sold to DIY individuals like myself that like to build and customize our bikes for various reasons. Old bikes with new parts, got a really good deal on a bike that wasn't quite like I wanted, etc.

Again, re-designing old 7, 8, and even the current low end 9 speed groups is not worth the money the manufacturer will put into it. The cost of the re-design, the new tooling at the plant, the marketing and other stuff will make it the same cost as current 10 and 11 groups. They'd never sell enough for profit to occur. Who buying a new bike is going buy a 8 speed priced at 1500 dollars when they can buy and 11 speed for 1500 dollars. Actually prices for 11 speed new bikes are lower than that now.

The big gist is that there is no profit for new manufacture of old stuff whether re-designed or not. While a lot of us talk about lesser, older group sets here, it's because we can find an advantage to using them that fits our purpose.

I do admit this is my OPINION from my knowledge of how business and manufacturing works. I'm not appraised of current information for the bicycle industry itself. Therefore I have made assumptions and generalities.

MRT2

Agree 100%. Think about it. There are almost no new 5 and 6 speed bikes being made, and that includes bikes sold at Wal Mart. 7 speed is starting to get phased out. It won't be long before Shimano introduces and entry level 9 speed group, at which point you won't see many 8 speed bikes at bike shops except as loss leaders. Fortunately, given the hundreds of millions of functional older bikes still on the road with worn chains, free wheels or cassettes, It will still profitable for Shimano to sell low end 5, 6 and 7 speed free wheels, and also 8 speed cassettes as low priced commodities, but not as new, high end group sets.

Barabaika

If you have little money, why would you buy an 11-speed bike for $1,500 when you can buy a good new 7-speed bike for $300?

Why would you pay $70-500 for an 11-speed or 12-speed cassette when you usually skip cogs on it and really use only 6 gears? A $10 7-speed freewheel costs less and lasts 2 times longer than a $200 11-speed cassette. If Shimano doesn't want to produce freewheels, there are 5 Taiwanese companies that do.

There are not many 5-speed derailleur-based components because 5-speed internal hubs cover that range.

---
By the way, I have a 1x6 setup on one of the bikes and I have no cross-chaining problems. Every combination works. There is absolutely no noise.
The chain ring is 34t and the 6-speed freewheel is Suntour 14-34. I only wish that I had a smaller chain ring in some situations. What will be a benefit in having an 11-speed setup if I use only 6 gears?

I also have a bike with the Alfine 8. It's silent and very convenient.

Iride01 

My comments said nothing about having "little money". I would think that you could assume I was talking about a prospective buyer with a budget of 1500 dollars.

Some people have 2x11 setups that make no noise with all usable combos.

the benefit of 11 speeds? well in the 70's I ask myself what the benefit was of a 6 speed vs a 5 speed. The answer is the possibility of finding that perfect combination for a couple fractions of a second as your ride condition change. Less important for cruisers, more important for those that ride near max effort.

Barabaika

You can get the gear ratios for your preferred gear combinations using the calculator.
For example,
Sheldon Brown's Bicycle Gear Calculator

If your 14-34t 7-speed freewheel is not in the list, just enter each cog in the custom fields.

Then try to check them against a chain ring that is between 38t and 48t (your middle and big chain rings).
You may be able to find a single chain ring size that covers almost all your preferred range.

Barabaika

Couple fractions of a second are really important for 1% of riders.

A commuter, for example, doesn't care about them at all, but she cares about noise and reliability, and cost, of course. A $1,500 bike is more likely to be stolen than a $300 bike with "outdated" components.

If somebody really cares about fractions of a second, she can easily get a bike with an electric battery. That's a modern tech.

Ironfish653

Horses for courses, as it were.

The bike I use for running around town is an older MTB, with a 7-speed rear end. It's pretty much flat where I live, so I usually only use a couple of gears, usually the big ring, and the smaller sprockets. (that bike has very low gears)1
Lots of short hops, stop-n-go, not more than a couple-or-three miles at a steady pace

Going over the road for 100 miles of varied terrain, though, having a lot of gears to choose from helps you get to the end of the day. Having to spin a gear that's too low can leave you winded, and too low a gear can fatigue your muscles. A wide spread of closely spaced gears helps you find that sweet spot between spinning too fast and pushing to hard.

Tape2012

Am I missing something? I've had a 105 3x10 and 2x11 and have always been able to adjust the FD and use the trim positions to eliminate any rub.

Barabaika

A 30-year-old "twelve-speed" has 12 gears. A freewheel for it costs $10, a chain $6.

The modern high-end SRAM Eagle group also has 12 gears. A cassette for it costs $367, a chain $60.
Will I get it for a touring bike to ride 100 miles a day? I don't think so. I doubt that it's reliable enough and noiseless.
Will it sell to the folks "more gears are always better"? Sure!

WNCGoater

So is mine. Oh wait, you said "mouse", I thought you said "moose". Nevermind.

Payton1221

Do most triples have a trim position? Mine does not.

indyfabz

Moose are generally quiet creatures.

WNCGoater

Yes, "generally". But when they're not...

indyfabz

Ever step on a mouse, or hear one that recently got stuck in a glue trap? How so much noise can come out of something that small amazes me.

Leisesturm

There are not any 5-speed derailleur based components made anymore because 5-speed derailleur tech is obsolete. 5 speed internal hubs may cover that range, but may not, and will be heavier, more expensive, much more complex, and likely very limited in the amount of torque that can be put through them. Friction shifted front triples do eliminate noise but only if they are trimmed. Several indexed front shifting systems allow limited trimming. Probably enough for most situations. The real limiting factor is chainstay length. People think they have short wheelbase bikes but they don't know just how short can be. When you have a chainstay so short that you can only fit a 25mm clincher, you will find crosschaining a possibility even with a double ring front system. A long wheelbase recumbent will not have crosschain issues with any combination of front and rear rings, but no matter what gearing and no matter what bike, a little time spent learning a shift pattern that moves logically through the gears and avoids the big/big and little/little extremes is a good idea to work out before you are out on the road with it.

Barabaika

These photos of Eagle setups don't give me enough assurance that it's reliable.

SRAM sells "more gears". The reliability and longevity of the system are irrelevant.

Barabaika

5-speed internal hubs cost just over $100 with shifters: https://www.universalcycles.com/shop...?category=2713
They replace a rear hub, a cassette, rear and front derailleurs, a double crankset.

It's a way to go if you want a quieter system. Though, I use the Alfine 8 instead, it's $100 more expensive.

Barabaika

The angle is extreme. It will cause noise.

SRAM made the chain narrower, so it can flex like this. Thus, it compromised the reliability of the chain. I expect that it should be good for 1,000 miles, then you have to replace it for $60. An 8-speed chain should be good for 5,000 miles.

Ironfish653

Wrong horse for the course. The SRAM Eagle is a 1x12 group. I wouldn't fit a 1x anything on to a century bike.

I did ride my first century on a 40-year old 'twelve-speed' There were many times in the hills of North Carolina, usually on a long climb, where I was wishing for a gear in between two of the cogs on the wide-range 6-speed freewheel. Too low, and you spin too fast to maintain, to high, and your muscles build fatigue faster.

My current bike is a 3x8, and on the same ride this year, I was shifting gears a lot more often, but I was able to keep my cadence in a much more efficient range, and keep my average speed about 1.5 mph higher than the year before.
When you are on the bike for 8 hours a day, you don't want to be over-working yourself through the first 50 miles, so that you're dogged out on the second half of the day. Even more important on a multi-day tour, where you have to do it all again the next day.

Most of the group I do this ride with has newer hardware than I do, with 2x10 and 3x10 being very popular.

Since you bring up cost, a 10-speed Shimano 105 cassette is $40, and the chain is $20.

Payton1221

I considered a bike with internal gears--specifically one with 8 gears, but I read that they were noisy. True?