Common sense on bicycle helmets
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1. Said 12mph speed will easily happen in a stumble while walking. You walk more than you cycle, so you're at more risk of a 12mph impact while walking (unless you are a VERY bad bike handler.) Do you wear a walking helmet?
2. Said 12 mph impact is very, very, VERY rarely fatal. I.e. the only accident that a helmet will function in is one that stands almost no chance of killing you. Almost all cyclist deaths involve 30-40mph impacts with cars. Oh - and 50-70% of the deaths due to head injury also involve torso injuries that would have proved fatal.
If you were a little less deceptive, (or maybe just more informed?), you would have taken that into account.
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Wait, so I slammed my head into a rock, after falling. I was probably riding 20-30mph. My pedal got snagged on a rock and it kicked me off my bike. I landed on my shoulder, my head followed, it snapped/slammed into a 6" rock on the side, above my temple just about. My helmet split - all the way. I got up and felt like I had just hit my head on an empty carboard box - a great feeling, contrary to what I would have expected. The helmet did a fantastic job of not only protecting my skull from shattering, but it prevented concussion too. The whiplash effect of my head smashing into a rock instantly after my shoulder hit the ground was without a doubt around what they designed helmets for, yet it very easily could have shattered my skull, and possibly could have killed me. Same exact scenario could happen with a road bike, minus the reason for falling in the first place, of course (there are plenty of reasons to fall like this on a road bike, having your head whiplash into the ground after your upper body takes the initial pound).
Without a doubt, my helmet was designed to withstand that impact.
It saved my life, or, at least saved my skull from shattering, both equally pretty bad in terms of injury.
How is that any different from someone falling off their bike, or being bounced off a car, and then falling with a vertical component due to gravity, hitting their head on the pavement? Obviously, you can get hit by a car going 20mph in a horizontal direction, and, after being bounced (your body took the direct impact, not your head), your vertical velocity of travel isn't going to be 20mph in most cases - it will be a velocity proportional to the effects of gravity.
a) address that regarding your belief that 12mph standards are seemingly worthless with regard to saving lives
b) did you ever take a physics course - just wondering who I'm speaking to here.
Without a doubt, my helmet was designed to withstand that impact.
It saved my life, or, at least saved my skull from shattering, both equally pretty bad in terms of injury.
How is that any different from someone falling off their bike, or being bounced off a car, and then falling with a vertical component due to gravity, hitting their head on the pavement? Obviously, you can get hit by a car going 20mph in a horizontal direction, and, after being bounced (your body took the direct impact, not your head), your vertical velocity of travel isn't going to be 20mph in most cases - it will be a velocity proportional to the effects of gravity.
a) address that regarding your belief that 12mph standards are seemingly worthless with regard to saving lives
b) did you ever take a physics course - just wondering who I'm speaking to here.
Last edited by Covalent Jello; 07-18-10 at 08:01 AM.
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So. To finish over-killing the OP's irritatingly innumerate irrationality:
https://www.cyclehelmets.org/1012.html
The premise that helmets save lives is by extrapolation from research that has suggested that helmets might reduce injuries to the head. As most fatalities involve head injury (this applies to all major external causes of violent death, not especially cycling), the reasoning is that by reducing injuries to the head, cycle helmets can lead to fewer cyclist deaths.
Whole population statistics for cycling fatalities do not support the above hypothesis.
Long-term analyses of fatalities in Canada [8], New Zealand [9] and USA [10] [11] show no helmet benefit; indeed, one study [11] suggests helmeted cyclists are more likely to be killed. Although fatality rates have generally declined, cyclists have fared no better than pedestrians. In Great Britain, too, there has been no discernible improvement in fatality trends relative to pedestrians as helmets have become more common [12] [13] .
In New South Wales, Australia in the three years following the introduction of its helmet law, 80% of cyclists killed and 80% of those seriously injured wore helmets at the time [3] [4]. These proportions are almost identical to wearing rates in street surveys (85% and 83% for adults in 1992 and 1993 respectively; 76% and 74% for children [3] [5]), suggesting that helmets had little effect on the likelihood of fatal or serious injury.
In Western Australia where bicycle helmets have been mandatory for all ages since July 1992, the annual cyclist death toll from 1987 to 1991 (pre-law) averaged 7.6 fatalities per year. From 1993 to 1997 (post-law) it was 6.4 fatalities per year, representing a 16% reduction [6]. Government cycling surveys show cycling declined in Western Australia by approximately 30% during the 1990s following mandatory helmet law enforcement [7]. Thus the increase in helmet wearing as a result of the law did not reduce fatalities relative to cycle use and may have led to an increase.
Comparing Australia-wide fatalities in 1988 (before any helmet law) with 1994 (when all states had enforced laws and about 80% helmet wearing), cyclist, pedestrian and all road user deaths fell by 35%, 36% and 38% respectively. Head injury deaths fell by 30%, 38% and 42%. Despite very high helmet use, the reductions for cyclists were less than for the other road users [17]. The differences are much greater still if the considerable fall in cycle use as a result of the helmet laws is taken into account.
The premise that helmets save lives is by extrapolation from research that has suggested that helmets might reduce injuries to the head. As most fatalities involve head injury (this applies to all major external causes of violent death, not especially cycling), the reasoning is that by reducing injuries to the head, cycle helmets can lead to fewer cyclist deaths.
Whole population statistics for cycling fatalities do not support the above hypothesis.
Long-term analyses of fatalities in Canada [8], New Zealand [9] and USA [10] [11] show no helmet benefit; indeed, one study [11] suggests helmeted cyclists are more likely to be killed. Although fatality rates have generally declined, cyclists have fared no better than pedestrians. In Great Britain, too, there has been no discernible improvement in fatality trends relative to pedestrians as helmets have become more common [12] [13] .
In New South Wales, Australia in the three years following the introduction of its helmet law, 80% of cyclists killed and 80% of those seriously injured wore helmets at the time [3] [4]. These proportions are almost identical to wearing rates in street surveys (85% and 83% for adults in 1992 and 1993 respectively; 76% and 74% for children [3] [5]), suggesting that helmets had little effect on the likelihood of fatal or serious injury.
In Western Australia where bicycle helmets have been mandatory for all ages since July 1992, the annual cyclist death toll from 1987 to 1991 (pre-law) averaged 7.6 fatalities per year. From 1993 to 1997 (post-law) it was 6.4 fatalities per year, representing a 16% reduction [6]. Government cycling surveys show cycling declined in Western Australia by approximately 30% during the 1990s following mandatory helmet law enforcement [7]. Thus the increase in helmet wearing as a result of the law did not reduce fatalities relative to cycle use and may have led to an increase.
Comparing Australia-wide fatalities in 1988 (before any helmet law) with 1994 (when all states had enforced laws and about 80% helmet wearing), cyclist, pedestrian and all road user deaths fell by 35%, 36% and 38% respectively. Head injury deaths fell by 30%, 38% and 42%. Despite very high helmet use, the reductions for cyclists were less than for the other road users [17]. The differences are much greater still if the considerable fall in cycle use as a result of the helmet laws is taken into account.
#30
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Wait, so I slammed my head into a rock, after falling. I was probably riding 20-30mph. My pedal got snagged on a rock and it kicked me off my bike. I landed on my shoulder, my head followed, it snapped/slammed into a 6" rock. My helmet split - all the way. I got up and felt like I had just hit my head on an empty carboard box - a great feeling, contrary to what I would have expected.
Without a doubt, my helmet was designed to withstand that impact. It saved my life, or, at least saved my skull from shattering, both equally pretty bad in terms of injury.
How is that any different from someone falling off their bike, or being bounced off a car and then falling due to gravity, hitting their head on the pavement
Also - to point out what should have been completely obvious to even an idiot - the dangerous bit of being hit by a car is the impact WITH THE BIG SHINY FAST HEAVY METAL THING. Not the bit afterwards when you fall on the ground. That's the easy bit.
Really - this isn't rocket science: being hit by big, heavy, fast moving things made out of metal is dangerous!
b) did you ever take a physics course - just wondering who I'm speaking to here.
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Honestly - I can't say this enough people - BEING HIT BY CARS IS DANGEROUS! Avoid it. Don't think "Hey, after that car hits me at 40mph, I'm going to fall only 3 feet on to tarmac, and my helmet will easily cope with that, so I am COMPLETELY SAFE!" Because this will get you killed. Despite what Jello (whose parents certainly christened him with an apt name) thinks, it's not the ground that kills, it's the car.
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This explains a lot.
No, it wasn't. Check the manufacturer's spec.
I suspect the biggest difference is that it didn't actually happen.
Also - to point out what should have been completely obvious to even an idiot - the dangerous bit of being hit by a car is the impact WITH THE BIG SHINY FAST HEAVY METAL THING. Not the bit afterwards when you fall on the ground. That's the easy bit.
Really - this isn't rocket science: being hit by big, heavy, fast moving things made out of metal is dangerous!
Well, I have a degree in theoretical physics from one of the top five rated science universities in the world. Although I don't claim that you need to be an Associate of the Royal College Of Science to know that "being hit by big, heavy, fast moving things made out of metal is dangerous!" (Although I am.) Other than that, a large part of my professional life has been spent doing project risk analysis.
No, it wasn't. Check the manufacturer's spec.
I suspect the biggest difference is that it didn't actually happen.
Also - to point out what should have been completely obvious to even an idiot - the dangerous bit of being hit by a car is the impact WITH THE BIG SHINY FAST HEAVY METAL THING. Not the bit afterwards when you fall on the ground. That's the easy bit.
Really - this isn't rocket science: being hit by big, heavy, fast moving things made out of metal is dangerous!
Well, I have a degree in theoretical physics from one of the top five rated science universities in the world. Although I don't claim that you need to be an Associate of the Royal College Of Science to know that "being hit by big, heavy, fast moving things made out of metal is dangerous!" (Although I am.) Other than that, a large part of my professional life has been spent doing project risk analysis.
I know your type - those with the irrational black&white thinking processes of many an engineer/scientist, to the point where you find it hard to communicate anything but yes or no. If you're still confused, reread my post, you'll hopefully discover that you completely, without a doubt, missed the point. Your hyperbole & intense emotion confirms your unwillingness to communicate on a rational level, as of now, at least.
Last edited by Covalent Jello; 07-18-10 at 08:16 AM.
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So - am I being obtuse or representing poor Jello unfairly? Let's see what he said:
So, HELL YES, it was fair of me of to represent his argument as
"Hey, after that car hits me at 40mph, I'm going to fall only 3 feet on to tarmac, and my helmet will easily cope with that, so I am COMPLETELY SAFE!"
And once again, for anyone sharing Jello's intellectual gifts, the above is NOT true! Being hit by a car 1. hurts, and is 2. dangerous - even if you have arranged to land on a feather bed afterwards.
How is that any different from someone falling off their bike, or being bounced off a car, and then falling with a vertical component due to gravity, hitting their head on the pavement? Obviously, you can get hit by a car going 20mph in a horizontal direction, and, after being bounced (your body took the direct impact, not your head), your vertical velocity of travel isn't going to be 20mph in most cases - it will be a velocity proportional to the effects of gravity.
"Hey, after that car hits me at 40mph, I'm going to fall only 3 feet on to tarmac, and my helmet will easily cope with that, so I am COMPLETELY SAFE!"
And once again, for anyone sharing Jello's intellectual gifts, the above is NOT true! Being hit by a car 1. hurts, and is 2. dangerous - even if you have arranged to land on a feather bed afterwards.
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For starters, we could note that I said 20mph, not 40mph (LOL?)
But I told myself I wouldnt waste energy on you. I'm gonna go bike my ass off now. With a helmet. That isn't cracked in 2!
But I told myself I wouldnt waste energy on you. I'm gonna go bike my ass off now. With a helmet. That isn't cracked in 2!
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Oh - that makes a huge difference: being hit a ton of metal moving at 20mph won't hurt at all! Really! In fact, should go out and stand in front of a SUV moving at 20 mph right now. Get a friend to take a video for YouTube and shout "Evolution in action!" just before the moment of impact.
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Physics, proper statistical analysis, scientifically controlled studies, objective rational thinking, and adequate risk/benefit analysis cannot hope to compete with fear, prejudice and anecdotes.
But Meanwhile, I applaud your effort to do so. If the need to wear a helmet and likelihood of serious injury were anywhere close to what the helmet paranoids claim, I would wear a full face helmet and leathers (like I do on my motorcycles) or not ride at all. The typical bicycle helmet protects the part of the head least likely to be impacted in a fall. Ref. The Hurt study on motorcycle helmets.
Road cyclists do not wear full face helmets. This is not because they are not safer, it is for the same reasons many experienced cyclists do not wear helmets at all.
The OP started this thread as if this debate and these arguments, every last one of them, hadn't been published ad naseum before his post.
But Meanwhile, I applaud your effort to do so. If the need to wear a helmet and likelihood of serious injury were anywhere close to what the helmet paranoids claim, I would wear a full face helmet and leathers (like I do on my motorcycles) or not ride at all. The typical bicycle helmet protects the part of the head least likely to be impacted in a fall. Ref. The Hurt study on motorcycle helmets.
Road cyclists do not wear full face helmets. This is not because they are not safer, it is for the same reasons many experienced cyclists do not wear helmets at all.
The OP started this thread as if this debate and these arguments, every last one of them, hadn't been published ad naseum before his post.
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How about a NEW argument, not that a prediction about the future is even an argument. =o)
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Physics, proper statistical analysis, scientifically controlled studies, objective rational thinking, and adequate risk/benefit analysis cannot hope to compete with fear, prejudice and anecdotes.
But Meanwhile, I applaud your effort to do so. If the need to wear a helmet and likelihood of serious injury were anywhere close to what the helmet paranoids claim, I would wear a full face helmet and leathers (like I do on my motorcycles) or not ride at all. The typical bicycle helmet protects the part of the head least likely to be impacted in a fall. Ref. The Hurt study on motorcycle helmets.
Road cyclists do not wear full face helmets. This is not because they are not safer, it is for the same reasons many experienced cyclists do not wear helmets at all.
The OP started this thread as if this debate and these arguments, every last one of them, hadn't been published ad naseum before his post.
But Meanwhile, I applaud your effort to do so. If the need to wear a helmet and likelihood of serious injury were anywhere close to what the helmet paranoids claim, I would wear a full face helmet and leathers (like I do on my motorcycles) or not ride at all. The typical bicycle helmet protects the part of the head least likely to be impacted in a fall. Ref. The Hurt study on motorcycle helmets.
Road cyclists do not wear full face helmets. This is not because they are not safer, it is for the same reasons many experienced cyclists do not wear helmets at all.
The OP started this thread as if this debate and these arguments, every last one of them, hadn't been published ad naseum before his post.
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Physics, proper statistical analysis, scientifically controlled studies, objective rational thinking, and adequate risk/benefit analysis cannot hope to compete with fear, prejudice and anecdotes.
But Meanwhile, I applaud your effort to do so. If the need to wear a helmet and likelihood of serious injury were anywhere close to what the helmet paranoids claim, I would wear a full face helmet and leathers (like I do on my motorcycles) or not ride at all. The typical bicycle helmet protects the part of the head least likely to be impacted in a fall. Ref. The Hurt study on motorcycle helmets.
But Meanwhile, I applaud your effort to do so. If the need to wear a helmet and likelihood of serious injury were anywhere close to what the helmet paranoids claim, I would wear a full face helmet and leathers (like I do on my motorcycles) or not ride at all. The typical bicycle helmet protects the part of the head least likely to be impacted in a fall. Ref. The Hurt study on motorcycle helmets.
Road cyclists do not wear full face helmets. This is not because they are not safer, it is for the same reasons many experienced cyclists do not wear helmets at all.
The OP started this thread as if this debate and these arguments, every last one of them, hadn't been published ad naseum before his post.
The OP started this thread as if this debate and these arguments, every last one of them, hadn't been published ad naseum before his post.
#43
Lost Again
Helmets or the lack of helmets are the religions of the bike forum. Each side is constantly trying to covert the other side, neither listens to the other beyond the level needed to refute the other's arguments.
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#45
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More importantly - what's the very interesting drop handle bike in your sig pic?
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Earlier I wondered if these posters were related (I was interested in several genetic possibilities) or in a group home. I genuinely wonder whether the posters to these threads who try to insist that we should all wear helmets are in some sort of assisted living for people that have suffered serious head trauma.
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#49
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And, as you know, the main instrument of serious head damage is rotation, which normal bicycle helmets don't reduce in serious crashes and may make worse. Anyone who really wants to invest in their safety should invest in one of the new anti-rotation designs just beginning to appear. The only one I've seen was a full face design and cost £400...
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I think Meanwhile is talking about the Philips helmet. Using the magic of the Google machine I found the following:
https://www.phillipshelmets.com/
https://www.phillipshelmets.com/
A conventional helmet, such as a motorcycle helmet, provides good protection from impact injuries but provides little protection against rotational injury or Diffuse Axonal Injury (DAI) which is severe brain damage.
PHPS is a radical development in helmet design. It adds a lubricated flexible membrane over the outside of the helmet, and it is proven to add up to 60% more protection against brain injury.
A blow to the head causes a sharp and immediate rotation of the skull and the brain, which has potentially devastating and untreatable effects on soft brain tissue and blood vessels which can literally be ripped apart by the shearing forces inside the brain and the movement of the brain within the skull.
The lubricant and elastic quality of the PHPS membrane on a crash helmet decreases this rotational force in the critical milliseconds following impact, significantly reducing the head trauma and reducing the risk of traumatic brain injury.
PHPS is a radical development in helmet design. It adds a lubricated flexible membrane over the outside of the helmet, and it is proven to add up to 60% more protection against brain injury.
A blow to the head causes a sharp and immediate rotation of the skull and the brain, which has potentially devastating and untreatable effects on soft brain tissue and blood vessels which can literally be ripped apart by the shearing forces inside the brain and the movement of the brain within the skull.
![](https://www.phillipshelmets.com/userfiles/image/PHPS/1767749%20Blue%20Skull.jpg)
The lubricant and elastic quality of the PHPS membrane on a crash helmet decreases this rotational force in the critical milliseconds following impact, significantly reducing the head trauma and reducing the risk of traumatic brain injury.