beatlebee 

After reading Coggan's reply, I am just going to ignore, thanks.

Wesley36

Cool, I am sure that is good enough for training purposes.

However, at risk of seeming pedantic, I think it is fair to add this. Asking Coggan about W' is kind of like asking my father about the metric system. Coggan is deeply (professionally, reputationally, financially) invested in WKO+, and W' is a concept that was developed by Skiba and implemented by GC. I think it is relevant that Coggan has a big chip on his shoulder where the main rival to WKO+ is concerned (which is what GC has been, although cloud-based solutions like CA might be changing that).

Additionally, as Coggan has pointed out a number of times, the FTP-based model that has been the cornerstone of power training is quite robust in accounting for variation in power levels at a range of durations, but it breaks down when we get to AWC power, that is, durations shorter than a minute or two. Theoretically, it also breaks down in the other direction because it predicts a power level that is sustainable to infinity, but I think we can all accept that as a limitation of the model that does not cancel out its utility.

Personally, I have found W' analytically helpful, particularly with ride files from crits or when examining files from races/ rides where I blew up. FWIW, while I have gone over 100% of W' more than once, being over 110% has always meant that I have blown up.

I have not bothered to look into the details of how W' is calculated, but for those who care to get into it more deeply:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!to...rs/dI_5nbhEFRQ
Modeling the expenditure and reconstitution of work capacity above ... - PubMed - NCBI

beatlebee 

@Wesley36: thanks. I only use a few features on GC, with TSB being one and I wanted to be sure that W' was not messing with that. I just don't know what do to with the W' data. I know that when it goes over 100%, I had a ride that involved lots of really hard surges. Maybe I should look for my best 2 min power during that last ride and insert it in for the W' test on GC. I know that I could do a standard 2 min test, but I hit better numbers in races/group rides than otherwise.

OT: it is slightly interesting to me to see a lot of mud thrown at Coggan on slowtwitch in his forum replies. <shrug>

hack

Wish I had a powertap for a couple days. I've got a Quarq Riken on my road bike and a Power2Max on my TT. I moved the Power2Max over to the road bike for a few days and would interested to see how the Riken and Power2Max compare. Would need a powertap or some other non crank based meter to use as a comparison. Couldn't do stages because the Riken is on Force 22 BB30 arms and the Power2Max is on a Rotor 3D.

tetonrider

it's often one guy--a developer of GC. he follows coggan everywhere, trying to find fault.

everyone can form their own opinion about the man, but i believe he gives credit where credit is due (he doesn't claim to have invented models that he hasn't invented--he cites lots of prior work that his own work has built upon; yay, science!). he gets attacked, personally, quite a bit.

everything i've read shows that he is not opposed to W'. he also has a new model which we haven't yet seen, so no one can really say much about it with authority. gotta give him credit for developing some stuff that many people reference all...the...time.

Wesley36

To be clear, for the most part, I agree. Not to gossip, but on the Wattage forum many of the discussions that he is involved in quickly turn into sh*t-flinging fests, and I have read him repeatedly go after GC-affiliated people in ways that are not cool. It is unfortunate, because this has hapened in the context of some substantively interesting discussions, but the actual substance was constantly being swamped under lots of invective.

My take - most of these fights have clearly been going on for years, with people sniping at each other. I am not in a position to make some sort of a judgement on who threw the first stone, and who is ultimately in the wrong, and Coggan (and others in the debates) have made some major contributions. In the debates I have seen Coggan comes across as an instigator, but I am sure that those personal conflicts have a longer history. What is the Gandhi expression? He who throws mud loses ground, I believe. Whoever is right or wrong (or more likely, everyone is both), it is too bad.

It is unfortunate. Probably not fair to lay it at the feet of any one person at this point, it in no way undermines their significant contributions, but still, it is unfortunate.

Hermes

The Quarq failed on my road bike. It was 2.5 years old. I replaced it with this. Now I will know for sure when I make my 1 watt season FTP improvement.



Oval rings...Sometime you have to say WTF and make your move.

Ygduf

now you won't know if you've improved or are seeing some leverage gain from the oval rings!

Doge

A teammate has that setup. I was going to have him try the PT on the rear and see if there was a difference. I'm not sure oval and round rings will give the same values.

Ygduf

@tetonrider will know if SRMs have the same elevated-numbers-with-non-round-rings issues that quarqs have.

revchuck 

He's an engineer - leveraging his potential gains.

Doge

Anyone know where the riders mass is stored in history for Strava?

It seems that for Strava W/Kg is based on the time the data was collected for the mass of the rider. I just updated rider weight and the W/Kg graphs didn't change (good).
So if rider did 1,000W at 50kg (20W/kg) Jan 1 and now rider weighs 100kg that old data still shows 20W/kg, so it is not re calculating on current mass - which is correct.

hack

Top right corer, toggle over the little picture of yourself, click "settings". About 3/4 of the way down is "weight".

Doge

Thanks, but I guess I asked wrong. I want historical weight, not current weight. So I have some historical power data and I want to know the rider weight at the time. As I'm dealing with a kid who's mass has doubled since he started racing that history would be nice to see. I know I can back into it off the W/Kg charts, I just was wondering if it was stored.

globecanvas

I didn't think it was stored. I thought that was one of the big knocks on strava, that whenever you update FTP or weight, your whole history changes.

hack

Yeah ... no clue on that part.

furiousferret

I don't think it is because I remember my w/kg values changing on my historical power curve after I changed my weight.

If it hasn't been said; www.cyclinganalytics.com

Doge

I just doubled the profile weight and nothing changed. I did not log out and back in.
Now I did - and it changed.
This is not a good way to do it. Any software you know of that keeps historical weight with power?

Doge

Thank you. Just saw this.

globecanvas

Cyclinganalytics is really good.

Hermes

CA is great until the website does not respond. Just tried to log on and web application failed. This happened last week as well.

shovelhd

Fudgy, quit hacking.

Hermes

CA is running but I suspect Fudgy is now looking at all racers' data.

@Ygduf My rings are set at position three (standard position). Did you modify the setting?

I put the bike on the trainer and rode for a few minutes. I could not feel any difference with the rings at least with this simple test. Maybe on a hard hill climb race, it will be different. The SRM worked perfectly with the Garmin 800 and calibrated.

Ygduf

I only have them on my tt bike, in the usual position. They report a little high power and feel super weird at low speed/low power. As soon as I move to tempo+ the deadspot in the rings disappears and they feel round. I have the osymetric and the shape is a little more square than rotors.

Hermes

Thanks Fudgy. I tried various power levels and cadence and the rings felt great. I will see how the rings work and may get them for the TT bike as well.