sreten

Hi,

Because of this thread I did an experiment today. I don't ride motorcycles.

Riding my folder, which has a tiny turning circle at low speed, I wiggled
the bars quite a lot but kept my balance for going straight forward.

It was surprising how much I could wiggle the bars and still ride a near
straight line. Obviously holding a wiggle to one side I'd have to turn
but I can't imagine it being remotely the same on a motorcycle.

The steering self corrects if you don't lean with the steering input.

Riding a bicycle nonhanded you can see the the countersteering
as you enter and exit a curve that maintains your balance.
But that is totally controlled by the bicycle riders balance.

I suspect that the problem really is a motorcycle needs immediate
balance response to steering input, whilst a bicycle simply doesn't.

There is a delay between pushing the bars and committing by
your balance to that steering input. However if you lean first
committed to the turn the steering will follow, with no delay.

rgds, sreten.

rebel1916

Is there anything you will not opine on, no matter how little your knowledge on the matter.

@bobotech countersteering is turning the bars to the left to go right. And vice versa. It is the way all 2 wheel inline vehicles turn. It is actually intuitive, until you think about it. It requires very little steering input to turn a bicycle at speed, so you don't really HAVE to think about it. But it happens. And it can be useful to do consciously in situations where you must turn 2 or more times in very quick succession.

FBinNY 

You've been doing it for years, you just never noticed. Read my post #33 here where I explain it somewhat.

Basically it's starting a turn with a small turn in the opposite direction, so the wheel track will be outside of your body. If you don't do this you'll turn the wheel track to a turning circle inside of your body and you'll "fall" to the outside.

sreten

Hi,

To steer you need to lean. Riding a bicycle non handed as you lean into
a right hand curve the bars will steer to the left as you lean into the curve
and straighten as you hit the lean angle. You go round the curve with the
bars straight pretty much and as you exit the right hand curve the bars
will steer to the right as you come up from your lean angle.

Most people don't realise they do this automatically.

You can't lean to the right with the bars turned to the right or come
up out of a right lean by turning the bars left, you turn them right.
Perhaps the exit is the easiest to understand. You need to overcook
your right turn to bring you back up to upright, by turning further right.

Counter steering and counter intuitive to most, who all can do it.

rgds, sreten.

Bandera

Sure thing:
"Countersteering is the technique used by single-track vehicle operators, such as cyclists and motorcyclists, to initiate a turn toward a given direction by momentarily steering counter to the desired direction" More in the article, it does take more than a sentence to explain.

-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering

Sheldon Brown:

"Countersteer is a popular subject for people who belatedly discover or rediscover how to balance. What is not apparent, is that two wheeled vehicles can be controlled ONLY by countersteer, there is no other way." More in the article, same reason.

-https://sheldonbrown.com/brandt/descending.html

Did you take the MSF Basics course?
Counter-steering is taught extensively, although Loud Pipes Save Lives is not.

Remember the Exercise: "Don't hit the rider-coach standing in the road giving you L Or R at the last second to dodge past?" That was counter-steering, unless you were the stupid SOB who ran me over in '90.

On a bicycle counter-steering has happened before you know it but knowledge never hurts, unlike crashing,

-Bandera

surreal

I suggested a rigid fork with slightly less ATC distance, which would lower the trail and theoretically improve steering response, way back on post number 6 on this thread...

Yeah, I gave you some advice back on post number 6, to which you didn't respond. A shorter stem could help, too. I'd take it one step at a time, though, to find your handling "sweet spot".

sreten

Hi,

I'm entitled to my opinions, whilst you are not entitled to ignorantly imply ignorance.
I don't know how you imagine such personal comments reflect well on you, they don't.

rgds, sreten.

rebel1916

Dude, you freely admit you hold opinions on matters you know nothing about. You are a fountain of misinformation. You are entitled to your opinion, but when you start presenting it publicly, I am entitled to point out just how unfounded in reality your opinions are. Seriously, even by internet standards you are astonishingly inaccurate.

sreten

Hi,

No I don't. No I'm not. No (in your ignorance) you are not.
No I'm not. Your full of pointless invective personal BS.

rgds, sreten.

rebel1916

Game set match. Not gonna quibble with you. Will continue to point out misinformation.

rebel1916

^^^^^Probably sage advice.

FBinNY 

Well, I tried.

rebel1916

And good on ya, as the Aussies say!^^^^^^

sreten

Hi,

Sitting on the fence is not necessarily trying,
and implies a tacit acceptance I don't accept.

rgds, sreten.

caloso

Yes, that is my point. It is possible to ride around corners, figure-8s, circles, whatever, all without touching the bars. As you say, the bike will countersteer for you, which is something I have learned from the experience of riding bicycles rather than watching motorcycle videos on the Internet.

FBinNY 

Let's be straight here. I don't owe you anything, nor do I feel I have an obligation to take sides. When I see two dogs fighting, I don't take sides, I throw water on both.

You'll notice I politely withheld commentary on the accuracy of the comments, and focused only on the conduct. If that doesn't satisfy you, I think it's more your problem than mine.

AnkleWork

Anyone who wants to understand counter-steering could ride and maneuver a motorcycle one-handed. You'll instantly learn everything there is to know about it. Counter-steering makes steering and balancing dual simultaneous aspects of the same phenomenon.

caloso

After reading this thread I am amazed that I ever learned how to ride a bike without having ridden a motorcycle first.

supremekizzle

My bringing up motorcycles was not intended to convey a sense of knowing how a bike is supposed to react based on previous riding experience. Rather, I was trying to note the similarities and get an idea on what I may be able to do to reproduce the characteristics on my bicycle. It's a two wheeled vehicle. Counter steering is the ONLY way it's done. Look at the links Bandera gave.


To all: I don't like that the thread degraded into spats of counter steering. To those that tried to give advice on the original subject matter of what I may be able to do to get more responsive steering; I give my thanks for taking the time to respond to me with helpful pointers on what may help. And thanks for questioning or blatantly telling me what I hypothesize to be right, is wrong. This is how we learn after all. I simply wanted to know a little bit more about how bicycle steering works and how we, as riders, can tweak it. And I give my biggest thanks to the posters who would just like me to know that my $600 bike is a POS, counter steering is a myth, and all the other wildly helpful tidbits of information that I simply can't live without.

I'm going to try and grip my bars further in on both sides next time I ride to see if narrow bars could be beneficial. I'm also going to jack up my tire pressure real high to see if that makes a difference. Something I didn't think about before is adjusting the preload or locking out the forks all together. I'll try a few of these things first to see if there is a difference in steering response. If the gains are marginal I could order a stubby stem to see if that makes a difference as well. Thanks

cny-bikeman

1. Of course you could keep going straight ahead, as you were actively correcting. Steering does not self-correct after a deflection at the bars - the rider is always interacting with the bike. If you were able to deflect the handlebar on a traveling riderless bike it would crash. Only if there is no input to the handlebars will a riderless bike self-correct.

2. As has been explained by FB, counter-steering does not maintain one's balance, but to the contrary induces an unbalanced state. To turn, the rider just has to allow the resulting correction and unbalanced state to proceed, rather than stopping it as is normal in straight ahead riding. The ending comment is correct, contradicting the statement in 1.

3. Simply stating the difference does not speak to why the difference exists, and again the bicycle relies on user input at all times. The reason for the different behavior between the two has been addressed.

4. Simply not true. One cannot simply lean without counter-steering. The lean is really a controlled 'fall" initiated by counter-steering. The only way to initiate a turn without counter-steer is to thrust one's hips in the direction of the turn, and even then the turn is a very shallow one.

blamester

I think you can turn in harder on a motorcycle because you have the engine to pull you out of the corner. Remember you have to counter steer to stop turning and on a bicycle you only have the speed you carried into the corner to use.On a motorcycle you can exagerate the turn in because you have the luxury of the motor to accelerate and auto counter steer.If you try this on a push bike you will ground a pedal and crash.

caloso

Legions of criterium racers will disagree with this statement. Yes, pedal strike is a concern and the cause of many Cat 5 crashes, but a skilled racer knows exactly how far he can lean and still pedal. Depending on BB height, crank length, and pedal dimensions, it can be a surprisingly low lean.

blamester

You are misinterpreting what i meant.It is very difficult to exaggerate the turn in on a bicycle because
you can't drop a bicycle deep into a turn and then pedal of the corner to increase your speed like you can on an mc. On a mc you can drop the bike on to the pegs and wind on the throttle to pull you out of
the corner even at low speed. Try that on a bicycle.I know you can pedal thru some corners.But you simply cannot lean over as far as on an mc and THEN apply power.

caloso

I defer to your superior knowledge on turning motorcycles.

bobotech

Is it possible to be riding a bicycle without countersteering? I wonder about that because I wonder if I'm riding a bicycle incorrectly and need to train myself to countersteer.

Or is it pretty much impossible to ride a bicycle without countersteering?