Melting wax
#51
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Berkeley CA
Posts: 2,555
Bikes: 1981 Ron Cooper, 1974 Cinelli Speciale Corsa, 2000 Gary Fisher Sugar 1, 1986 Miyata 710, 1982 Raleigh "International"
Mentioned: 99 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 938 Post(s)
Liked 1,342 Times
in
498 Posts
I drop my chain in the cold crockpot on my workbench. Turn it on, and set my phone alarm for 1 hour. When I go back it is always up to 200F so I swish the chain and remove.
Likes For davester:
#52
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 5,995
Bikes: 1989 Cinelli Supercorsa
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3634 Post(s)
Liked 3,062 Times
in
1,849 Posts
Josh Poertner from Silca uses an instant pot which melts the wax in under 10 minutes. That sounds like the best of both worlds.
#53
Newbie
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 33
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 9 Times
in
6 Posts
Waxing in a pot is completely different and will definitely prolongue the lifetime of your drivetrain. It makes a significant improvement in chainwear, etc. Can't imagine ever going back to oil based lubes.
#54
Newbie
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 33
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 9 Times
in
6 Posts
Melting wax on a pan can work in a pinch, but I wouldn't recommend it. Way too difficult to manage the temperature correctly. Additionally, it seems important that the chain is also heated if you want really good penetration. So much simpler to just let is sit in the pot for an hour with no worries.
Likes For JSL:
#55
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Maryland, USA
Posts: 2,511
Bikes: Drysdale/Gitane/Zeus/Masi/Falcon/Palo Alto/Raleigh/Legnano
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1024 Post(s)
Liked 706 Times
in
433 Posts
Melting wax on a pan can work in a pinch, but I wouldn't recommend it. Way too difficult to manage the temperature correctly. Additionally, it seems important that the chain is also heated if you want really good penetration. So much simpler to just let is sit in the pot for an hour with no worries.
__________________
Larry:1958 Drysdale, 1961 Gitane Gran Sport, 1974 Zeus track, 1988 Masi Gran Corsa, 1974 Falcon, 1980 Palo Alto, 1973 Raleigh Gran Sport, 1974 Legnano. Susan: 1976 Windsor Profesional.
Larry:1958 Drysdale, 1961 Gitane Gran Sport, 1974 Zeus track, 1988 Masi Gran Corsa, 1974 Falcon, 1980 Palo Alto, 1973 Raleigh Gran Sport, 1974 Legnano. Susan: 1976 Windsor Profesional.
#56
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 5,995
Bikes: 1989 Cinelli Supercorsa
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3634 Post(s)
Liked 3,062 Times
in
1,849 Posts
#57
Retired Bikeaholic
Likes For montclairbobbyb:
#58
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Northampton, MA
Posts: 1,909
Bikes: 36" Unicycle, winter knock-around hybrid bike
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 930 Post(s)
Liked 393 Times
in
282 Posts
What experience have those doing crockpot waxing had with the re-usability of chain connector links?
Both KMC and SRAM claim to have re-usable links (at least in the larger widths like 8-speed), any experience with longetivity in practice?
(For KMC it's critical to note the difference between the 7.1 and 7.3 mm versions - SRAM seems to only do 7.1mm and not 7.3mm chains. The packaging of the KMC 7.1mm links seems to imply they can be used on SRAM chains as well, though who knows how that works out in practice)
Both KMC and SRAM claim to have re-usable links (at least in the larger widths like 8-speed), any experience with longetivity in practice?
(For KMC it's critical to note the difference between the 7.1 and 7.3 mm versions - SRAM seems to only do 7.1mm and not 7.3mm chains. The packaging of the KMC 7.1mm links seems to imply they can be used on SRAM chains as well, though who knows how that works out in practice)
Last edited by UniChris; 06-08-22 at 08:37 AM.
#59
multimodal commuter
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: NJ, NYC, LI
Posts: 19,809
Bikes: 1940s Fothergill, 1959 Allegro Special, 1963? Claud Butler Olympic Sprint, Lambert 'Clubman', 1974 Fuji "the Ace", 1976 Holdsworth 650b conversion rando bike, 1983 Trek 720 tourer, 1984 Counterpoint Opus II, 1993 Basso Gap, 2010 Downtube 8h, and...
Mentioned: 584 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1908 Post(s)
Liked 575 Times
in
340 Posts
I made a solar melter for chain lube. It was just a wooden box (an old drawer) painted black, with a piece of glass that fit it nicely and sealed pretty well. I put the wax in a black plastic tub (from a Trader Joes mac&cheese I believe) inside the box. Put that out in the sun on a summer afternoon and the wax will melt in an hour or two.
Planning ahead is more complicated if you have to have a sunny day, of course. I didn't stick with this regimen of chain maintenance.
__________________
www.rhmsaddles.com.
www.rhmsaddles.com.
Likes For rhm:
#60
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 5,995
Bikes: 1989 Cinelli Supercorsa
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3634 Post(s)
Liked 3,062 Times
in
1,849 Posts
I made a solar melter for chain lube. It was just a wooden box (an old drawer) painted black, with a piece of glass that fit it nicely and sealed pretty well. I put the wax in a black plastic tub (from a Trader Joes mac&cheese I believe) inside the box. Put that out in the sun on a summer afternoon and the wax will melt in an hour or two.
#61
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,514
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1636 Post(s)
Liked 1,842 Times
in
1,025 Posts
Two points I haven't see mentioned:
1. Don't just dip the chain in and out as soon as the wax melts. You need to get that wax as hot as possible, well above the boiling point of water, and cook the chain in there for a good long time, in order to cook off all the water and solvents remaining on the chain.
2. Don't just pull out the chain when the wax is still scalding hot. The wax will just drip right off the chain. You need to let the wax cool down until it starts to thicken.
1. Don't just dip the chain in and out as soon as the wax melts. You need to get that wax as hot as possible, well above the boiling point of water, and cook the chain in there for a good long time, in order to cook off all the water and solvents remaining on the chain.
2. Don't just pull out the chain when the wax is still scalding hot. The wax will just drip right off the chain. You need to let the wax cool down until it starts to thicken.
#62
Wheelman
Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Putney, London UK
Posts: 887
Bikes: 1982 Holdsworth Avanti (531), 1961 Holdsworth Cyclone
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 305 Post(s)
Liked 717 Times
in
363 Posts
Two points I haven't see mentioned:
1. Don't just dip the chain in and out as soon as the wax melts. You need to get that wax as hot as possible, well above the boiling point of water, and cook the chain in there for a good long time, in order to cook off all the water and solvents remaining on the chain.
2. Don't just pull out the chain when the wax is still scalding hot. The wax will just drip right off the chain. You need to let the wax cool down until it starts to thicken.
1. Don't just dip the chain in and out as soon as the wax melts. You need to get that wax as hot as possible, well above the boiling point of water, and cook the chain in there for a good long time, in order to cook off all the water and solvents remaining on the chain.
2. Don't just pull out the chain when the wax is still scalding hot. The wax will just drip right off the chain. You need to let the wax cool down until it starts to thicken.
I gave it 30 mins at 95c the first time, but you say above 100c for a while which makes sense for removing water.
What temp would you suggest ?
Update: did some googling and Molten Speed Wax say not to heat above 93c (200F)
https://moltenspeedwax.com/pages/waxing-your-chain
Last edited by Aardwolf; 06-08-22 at 12:25 PM. Reason: Update
#63
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,514
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1636 Post(s)
Liked 1,842 Times
in
1,025 Posts
I've just started waxing (about 207 miles back), using a 0.5L depilation wax heater with digital temperature control - a bit small but I had it lying around (for accordion wax not hair
I gave it 30 mins at 95c the first time, but you say above 100c for a while which makes sense for removing water.
What temp would you suggest ?
Update: did some googling and Molten Speed Wax say not to heat above 93c (200F)
https://moltenspeedwax.com/pages/waxing-your-chain
I gave it 30 mins at 95c the first time, but you say above 100c for a while which makes sense for removing water.
What temp would you suggest ?
Update: did some googling and Molten Speed Wax say not to heat above 93c (200F)
https://moltenspeedwax.com/pages/waxing-your-chain
#64
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Berkeley CA
Posts: 2,555
Bikes: 1981 Ron Cooper, 1974 Cinelli Speciale Corsa, 2000 Gary Fisher Sugar 1, 1986 Miyata 710, 1982 Raleigh "International"
Mentioned: 99 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 938 Post(s)
Liked 1,342 Times
in
498 Posts
Two points I haven't see mentioned:
1. Don't just dip the chain in and out as soon as the wax melts. You need to get that wax as hot as possible, well above the boiling point of water, and cook the chain in there for a good long time, in order to cook off all the water and solvents remaining on the chain.
2. Don't just pull out the chain when the wax is still scalding hot. The wax will just drip right off the chain. You need to let the wax cool down until it starts to thicken.
1. Don't just dip the chain in and out as soon as the wax melts. You need to get that wax as hot as possible, well above the boiling point of water, and cook the chain in there for a good long time, in order to cook off all the water and solvents remaining on the chain.
2. Don't just pull out the chain when the wax is still scalding hot. The wax will just drip right off the chain. You need to let the wax cool down until it starts to thicken.
1.Zero Friction Cycling and Molten Speed Wax and other articles on cycling explain that you shouldn't go over 200F. This is because high temperatures will break down the hydrocarbon chains in the wax and ruin its lubricating properties. They also explain that you should make sure that the chains are dry and completely purged of all petroleum products and solvents before waxing.
2. Again, ZFC and MSW and others explain that you should pull the chain when hot. The wax will cling to the metal. There is no reason to let it cool.
Edit: Also, here's a nice little FAQ by ZFC explaining much of the above and more, including the pros and cons of using slow cookers, rice cookers, pans on the stove, instant pots, etc. https://zerofrictioncycling.com.au/w...-FAQ-v1.3b.pdf
Last edited by davester; 06-08-22 at 04:47 PM.
Likes For davester:
#65
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Maryland, USA
Posts: 2,511
Bikes: Drysdale/Gitane/Zeus/Masi/Falcon/Palo Alto/Raleigh/Legnano
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1024 Post(s)
Liked 706 Times
in
433 Posts
OK, got a bag of powdered PTFE here (sounds like I should wear a mask during the process!), plus someone mentioned molybdenum disulfide (MOS2) so I got some of that as well. No idea how much powder to add to how much wax, and nothing on the powder manufacurer's website tighter. Is there a guideline?
__________________
Larry:1958 Drysdale, 1961 Gitane Gran Sport, 1974 Zeus track, 1988 Masi Gran Corsa, 1974 Falcon, 1980 Palo Alto, 1973 Raleigh Gran Sport, 1974 Legnano. Susan: 1976 Windsor Profesional.
Larry:1958 Drysdale, 1961 Gitane Gran Sport, 1974 Zeus track, 1988 Masi Gran Corsa, 1974 Falcon, 1980 Palo Alto, 1973 Raleigh Gran Sport, 1974 Legnano. Susan: 1976 Windsor Profesional.
#66
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,238
Mentioned: 485 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3840 Post(s)
Liked 6,898 Times
in
2,665 Posts
OK, got a bag of powdered PTFE here (sounds like I should wear a mask during the process!), plus someone mentioned molybdenum disulfide (MOS2) so I got some of that as well. No idea how much powder to add to how much wax, and nothing on the powder manufacurer's website tighter. Is there a guideline?
https://www.bikeradar.com/news/frict...-lube-formula/
#67
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Maryland, USA
Posts: 2,511
Bikes: Drysdale/Gitane/Zeus/Masi/Falcon/Palo Alto/Raleigh/Legnano
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1024 Post(s)
Liked 706 Times
in
433 Posts
This site says 5g of PTFE and 1g of MoS2 per 1 lb of paraffin:
https://www.bikeradar.com/news/frict...-lube-formula/
https://www.bikeradar.com/news/frict...-lube-formula/
(Just coming off two weeks sick, ready to ride again, on my last ride I swear I think I heard a faint squeak which implies overdue to re-wax)
__________________
Larry:1958 Drysdale, 1961 Gitane Gran Sport, 1974 Zeus track, 1988 Masi Gran Corsa, 1974 Falcon, 1980 Palo Alto, 1973 Raleigh Gran Sport, 1974 Legnano. Susan: 1976 Windsor Profesional.
Larry:1958 Drysdale, 1961 Gitane Gran Sport, 1974 Zeus track, 1988 Masi Gran Corsa, 1974 Falcon, 1980 Palo Alto, 1973 Raleigh Gran Sport, 1974 Legnano. Susan: 1976 Windsor Profesional.
#68
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Berkeley CA
Posts: 2,555
Bikes: 1981 Ron Cooper, 1974 Cinelli Speciale Corsa, 2000 Gary Fisher Sugar 1, 1986 Miyata 710, 1982 Raleigh "International"
Mentioned: 99 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 938 Post(s)
Liked 1,342 Times
in
498 Posts
Thanks!!! And the article says I need to source a milk frother? How do you do it, just stir with a spoon? And I guess I can carefully use my wife's digital kitchen scale to measure 1g and 5g.
(Just coming off two weeks sick, ready to ride again, on my last ride I swear I think I heard a faint squeak which implies overdue to re-wax)
(Just coming off two weeks sick, ready to ride again, on my last ride I swear I think I heard a faint squeak which implies overdue to re-wax)
#69
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,238
Mentioned: 485 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3840 Post(s)
Liked 6,898 Times
in
2,665 Posts
Thanks!!! And the article says I need to source a milk frother? How do you do it, just stir with a spoon? And I guess I can carefully use my wife's digital kitchen scale to measure 1g and 5g.
(Just coming off two weeks sick, ready to ride again, on my last ride I swear I think I heard a faint squeak which implies overdue to re-wax)
(Just coming off two weeks sick, ready to ride again, on my last ride I swear I think I heard a faint squeak which implies overdue to re-wax)
#70
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Maryland, USA
Posts: 2,511
Bikes: Drysdale/Gitane/Zeus/Masi/Falcon/Palo Alto/Raleigh/Legnano
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1024 Post(s)
Liked 706 Times
in
433 Posts
Or you could just buy a bag of Molten Speed Wax or Silca Secret Chain Blend that have years of research behind their formulations and will last you through many waxings, no frother needed. Note that ZFC has several warnings regarding poorly performing DIY waxes, i.e. https://zerofrictioncycling.com.au/w...-FAQ-v1.3b.pdf
Cool.
In a major RTFM moment, I am reading the package for the Molten Speed Wax and it states it already had PTFE and MOS2 in it! Hmm, is there merit in adding more?
Then again, while I still have 17.07oz of the wax, once I start doing more chains, I'll need more and in 15 months this stuff went from $21 to $32, that's quite a hike. Perhaps there are additive-less waxes that I can modify with the additives I have now bought, that are cheaper (?) Silca brand wax seems to be even more expensive.
It took a while but I got the mini-crockpot hot enough to melt the wax I had stored in there, and transferred the wax to the new saucepan. Ready to treat the chain...
__________________
Larry:1958 Drysdale, 1961 Gitane Gran Sport, 1974 Zeus track, 1988 Masi Gran Corsa, 1974 Falcon, 1980 Palo Alto, 1973 Raleigh Gran Sport, 1974 Legnano. Susan: 1976 Windsor Profesional.
Larry:1958 Drysdale, 1961 Gitane Gran Sport, 1974 Zeus track, 1988 Masi Gran Corsa, 1974 Falcon, 1980 Palo Alto, 1973 Raleigh Gran Sport, 1974 Legnano. Susan: 1976 Windsor Profesional.
#71
Senior Member
What experience have those doing crockpot waxing had with the re-usability of chain connector links?
Both KMC and SRAM claim to have re-usable links (at least in the larger widths like 8-speed), any experience with longetivity in practice?
(For KMC it's critical to note the difference between the 7.1 and 7.3 mm versions - SRAM seems to only do 7.1mm and not 7.3mm chains. The packaging of the KMC 7.1mm links seems to imply they can be used on SRAM chains as well, though who knows how that works out in practice)
Both KMC and SRAM claim to have re-usable links (at least in the larger widths like 8-speed), any experience with longetivity in practice?
(For KMC it's critical to note the difference between the 7.1 and 7.3 mm versions - SRAM seems to only do 7.1mm and not 7.3mm chains. The packaging of the KMC 7.1mm links seems to imply they can be used on SRAM chains as well, though who knows how that works out in practice)
BTW those of you with partners who like to garage sale and flea market, tell them you need a standard large crock pot for your shop. You'll have one in no time and cheap (same day for me when I made the request).
Likes For sced:
#73
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Northampton, MA
Posts: 1,909
Bikes: 36" Unicycle, winter knock-around hybrid bike
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 930 Post(s)
Liked 393 Times
in
282 Posts
I used to get a fair amount of re-use on 9-10 speed links, KMC was my favorite. But in the 11-12 world I've been switching them out once a year, which is typically just 2 re-wax events for road and MTB. They just seem more worn out and harder to get to snap back in place.
BTW those of you with partners who like to garage sale and flea market, tell them you need a standard large crock pot for your shop. You'll have one in no time and cheap (same day for me when I made the request).
#74
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Maryland, USA
Posts: 2,511
Bikes: Drysdale/Gitane/Zeus/Masi/Falcon/Palo Alto/Raleigh/Legnano
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1024 Post(s)
Liked 706 Times
in
433 Posts
One wonders... why?
__________________
Larry:1958 Drysdale, 1961 Gitane Gran Sport, 1974 Zeus track, 1988 Masi Gran Corsa, 1974 Falcon, 1980 Palo Alto, 1973 Raleigh Gran Sport, 1974 Legnano. Susan: 1976 Windsor Profesional.
Larry:1958 Drysdale, 1961 Gitane Gran Sport, 1974 Zeus track, 1988 Masi Gran Corsa, 1974 Falcon, 1980 Palo Alto, 1973 Raleigh Gran Sport, 1974 Legnano. Susan: 1976 Windsor Profesional.
#75
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Northampton, MA
Posts: 1,909
Bikes: 36" Unicycle, winter knock-around hybrid bike
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 930 Post(s)
Liked 393 Times
in
282 Posts
Presumably because the sideplates of the higher speed count chains are too thin.
In the re-usable links that I'm familiar with, the capture of the pin is done with a stepped hole in the side plate - the plates have to move in to release it, and normally the installed chain end keeps them apart. It's a 3d feature.
If I had to guess, in the thinner sideplate chains the capture is more of a 2d feature than a 3d one, and involved essentially munging the metal to let the pin pop through a squeeze between two partially overlapping holes of different size, and not back out. Since the metal would actually flow it wouldn't work very many times.
Another way of looking at it is that a 7 or 8 (or maybe 9?) speed quick link won't securely lock unless installed on a chain (which sometimes leads people to think real ones are defective or fake, though of course fake ones are rampant).
Pure speculation as I don't have one to look at, but I wouldn't be surprised if a 10, 11, or 12 speed one would lock all by itself (but then, if you try it, you've used up its official life...)
In the re-usable links that I'm familiar with, the capture of the pin is done with a stepped hole in the side plate - the plates have to move in to release it, and normally the installed chain end keeps them apart. It's a 3d feature.
If I had to guess, in the thinner sideplate chains the capture is more of a 2d feature than a 3d one, and involved essentially munging the metal to let the pin pop through a squeeze between two partially overlapping holes of different size, and not back out. Since the metal would actually flow it wouldn't work very many times.
Another way of looking at it is that a 7 or 8 (or maybe 9?) speed quick link won't securely lock unless installed on a chain (which sometimes leads people to think real ones are defective or fake, though of course fake ones are rampant).
Pure speculation as I don't have one to look at, but I wouldn't be surprised if a 10, 11, or 12 speed one would lock all by itself (but then, if you try it, you've used up its official life...)
Last edited by UniChris; 06-16-22 at 07:23 AM.
Likes For UniChris: