I-Like-To-Bike

Just think of all the children's lives saved by those MHL's encouraging kids to do anything else.

genec

Huh... MHL??? Sorry, do not know the reference...

But frankly looking at some of the kids I saw the other day in the local department store... they sure could pedal off some pounds.

In fact, I happened to see bits of a pro football team cheerleader tryout on the news this AM... and far too many of those gals looked like they could afford to pedal off some pounds too.

I-Like-To-Bike

Figure it out. There is more than one way to be an invisible cyclist because of MHL for youth;
I assume you are familiar with the reference:

genec

MHL=mandatory helmet laws... OK. But the bottom line is that you are agreeing with me now that kids on bikes can and do work to be somewhat invisible, either because it is not cool to be seen having fun, or some adult will step in and tell them what not to do, or because of MHL, they just don't want to be seen. And lastly because they are kids, they tend to take all the shortcuts we may not ever consider.

All that DOES tend to render them "invisible" to the general public... on the other hand, the rent-a-cop at the mall sees them, the local shop owner sees them, and both are rather frustrated by kids on bikes... probably adding even further to the general disgust that the public has with anybody on bikes... sigh.

Except of course well mannered weekend riders rightly sticking to bike paths specially set up for the 2.4 mile rides these kind of folks do.

I-Like-To-Bike

I believe you missed my intent. In those areas where MHL have any bite, either through adult school or law officials or parents, youth cyclists are invisible because they don't consider cycling important enough to don dork domes.

webist

I started a thread a long time ago and have seen others in which an attempt is made to arrive at the description of an average cyclist or a definition. I recall asking whether any one found on a bicycle at anytime was ipso facto a cyclist. Or, alternatively, were some of these folks just people who were riding a bike?

I do not believe that the average person who rides a bike thinks of themselves as "cyclists" in the sense that most who visit these forums envision the manifestation of that word. I do not believe that the average American bike rider reads a cycling publication, watches any bicycle racing, participates in any cycling polls or visits cycling forums or other cycling realted internet sites.

My guess, and it is a SWAG, is that of the 65 million American bicycle riders cited in stats, only 400,000 to 500,000 are actually cyclists who could venture a description of clipping in to a clipless device.

genec

So now you are taking the other side of your argument about all the "uncounted masses of youth cyclists" by saying they simply don't ride?

That is a full about face to your earlier argument:
So are they out there and somewhat invisible, or are they not riding to avoid wearing "dork domes?"

Personally I think they are out there... but not riding to schools where "dork domes" would be required; they may not be out there in the same numbers that they were when I was young, but there are young riders... and they do keep off the main streets, if only to avoid traffic, cops and critical adults. And above it all, they are riding bikes and having fun.

sbhikes

When I was a kid and rode my bike to the beach, my first few miles were on the same streets I might drive on now including a freeway overpass (that's now sadly too over-designed now to be safe for a kid on a bicycle--unless a defiant one like I was).

Within a mile of the beach I got off the street and road a dirt path by the golf course and behind an oil refinery all the way to the beach. On my 10-speed, too, with the turned-up handlebars. No fat tire mountain bike was necessary. Kids know where the tunnels under the freeway are, the back alleys, the secret paths behind the refinery and through the golf courses and parks and they aren't afraid to go there. Or at least we weren't back in the 70s.

In Junior High I had to ride my bike to school. If my mother hadn't been so mean about it, I would have given up bike riding in Jr. High because riding a bike in the fog is HELL for a 13 year old girl, especially when Farah hair is all the rage and puberty is just beginning. There are more reasons than laziness for why people give up riding.

Even now I feel like the sloppy, overly casual one at the office when I see all the gorgeously coiffed and perfectly made-up ladies in Marketing arrive. And here I am carrying my helmet with my boring hair, and sweaty skin. They must think I'm a total dork. I truly believe worrying about your appearance and image is a HUGE reason why people don't ride bikes as adults. Pantyhose anyone? Who wants to put those on after the ride in? Bleh!

Roody

A few times some of these young cyclists have challenged me to race. What fun!

(I don't think any were wearing helmets, if that's what dork domes are. Personally, I like to see little kids wear helmets, but after 12 years, it's to each his own.)

-=(8)=-

x2 !!!

chipcom 

The way I look at it, yes, most Americans just 'ride a bike', until they get in the saddle and start riding. While they are in the saddle, they are cyclists. Not avid, not enthusiasts, not racers, not steely-eyed alpha dawgs, not commuters, not utilitarians - just cyclists. It's what they are at the time, not who they are always, like some of us perhaps.

chipcom 

Interesting point. The schools here don't seem to require a helmet, that I know of, nor does state law...yet kids don't ride to school here either. It's more a problem of getting ripped off, a lack of 'safe' routes to school, the fears of the parents and, of course, the seeming laziness of today's kids (ha, my daddy always told me I was a lazy slob because I DID ride my bike).

Of course helmets probably are not an issue with the schools here because nobody is riding...if there were any number of kids riding to school, I have no doubt that very soon there would be regulations about helmet use 'on school property'.

chipcom 

You had Farah hair, Diane? Now I will forever think of you when I see that pin-up of Farah on the bike.
Gawd I miss the 70s!

genec

Don't know where you are in Ohio... but some places do have mandatory helmet laws there. See this:
https://www.helmets.org/mandator.htm

As far as the schools themselves... the number of hoops a cycling child has to leap through, coupled with the potential for peer taunting based on having to wear a helmet, does rather make it difficult for a parent to insist.

Personally I rode to school because of the freedom it represented. I am surprised to not see more kids riding based on that alone.

chipcom 

All local laws, many of which are not enforced. There is a bill in front of the state legislature somewhere to mandate helmets for those under 18, which I imagine will pass as part of a deal to pass the changes to the vehicle laws that have some good changes for cyclists...including prempting most local laws concerning operating a bicycle on the roadways.

I-Like-To-Bike

But if I understand correctly a lot less in places where helmet laws are mandated for youth and enforced by the nanny patrols. Al least around here no youth who like/want to bike have to hide and become invisible to prevent harrasment from the nannies.

Pictures taken last fall at the elementary school nearest my house.

I-Like-To-Bike

That brings up an interesting posting on a different bicycle discussion list several years ago. A bicycle advocate from Ohio, (not one who posts here), quite prominent in the LAB -Reform clique posted how he was in favor of MHL for youth since he was unable to persuade his own children to wear helmets and was hoping someone else could force his kids to wear them. That he was advocating forcing everybody else to wear them or quit bicycling just to get his own kids to obey his wishes did not seem to cause him any concern.

sbhikes

No, I did not. Sorry to burst your bubble. My curling iron gave me that awful style with the two solid rolls around the face which then flattened out and stuck straight forward by the time the fog was through with me on my bike ride to school.

I hated riding my bike back then.

Other hateful 70s things: Having to do disco dances in PE and those awful pants that were really really tight and showed -er well I've heard it called "camel toes." Thank got the 70s are over!

chipcom 

I still love ya, Diane, even without the Farah hair, the camel toe and your propensity to scream 'Oh got!'

Bekologist

I think we are mostly in agreement then, that the "Average Cyclist" is a lot more like Homer Simpson than alpha dawgs doing the traffic dance (a.k.a. POWERWEAVE)?

Cycling advocates need to recognize bicyclists, as a group, are a lot more Homer Simpson than Road Warrior.
-Personally, I think I ride more like Bappu, or Ned Flanders on a alcohol jag, with a few insouciant shoulder checks and powerweaves thrown in, just to show the drivers
I am wise to their car driving tricks...

closetbiker

I think, based NBDAs' breakdown and on bicycle riders types average mileages, that although there may well be more Homer Simpsons than alpha dawgs, that at any given time, there will be an equal amount of utility, performance or Homer Simpson bicycle riders on the road.

That means (hopefully) more cyclists on the road will be doing the right thing (obeying the rules of the road) than the wrong thing (riding on the wrong side of the road, riding at night with no lights, blowing stop signs).

LittleBigMan

Recently I was coming home from work. I wanted to make a left across a line of stopped cars, and one fellow opened up and let me through. I had been standing/rolling slowly and when the chance came, I was glad to take it. The driver did the right thing not blocking the intersection.

After I went through, he called me an arse-whole, since I didn't thank him. I would have waved but I didn't want to take my hands off the bars. It was weird...

I wonder how many motorists look at us as if we're self-absorbed, holier-than-thou cyclists? It's a stereotype, but it might be there.