gsteinb

so there you go.

I've been missed in the results on a number of occasions, so if final was final I'd have been screwed.

mattm

#760 should get fined for not following the tech guide and pinning/gluing their number on correctly!

Hermes

Agree. Last year at Masters Track Nationals, one guy was fined for a number pinning infraction. Each night, USAC published a list of infractions, relegations and fines.

grolby

What you believe about the readability of the numbers isn't the issue. Crinkling harms readability by eye and by finish line camera. I've talked to officials about this.

Yeah, we're just talking numbers here, but the point is this: you and your kid are not special snowflakes. The rules are for everyone. Follow the damn rules. The 11th commandment nonsense you're teaching your kid ("don't get caught") doesn't sit too well.

Doge

I wish rules would be enforced and clear. I brought up this rule because its vague. And not enforced. And an example of something that is left to the referee's judgment.
The text of the rule says nothing about pins and uses the word "folded". The numbers we soften up/crinkle and then glue on are not folded and are firmly attached. The letter of the rule and the spirit of the rule are not broken. Because others may not know how to attach corners without pins does not make a rider who does a cheater.

There is no 11th commandment idea here. I don't think it is up to me any rider to determine what is cheating when an official with all the facts has that as their job. Cheating requires foreknowledge of going against the rule/spirit of the rule and covertness as to hide it from an official.

In SoCal Mrs. Allen (who's been doing it for 40 years) said current cameras have no issues (and since I video hundreds of races I agree) and folding means they are pined in place folded (tried by others and not allowed), or the area is reduced and what we do is fine. Eric Smith says its not OK and what we do is not fine. The rule does not speak of pins and I think "with pins" would be easy enough to add if they cares since the rules are changed yearly.

In that picture the most common number error was placement - not pins or glue or crinkles (which happens naturally in a stage race). I used this as an example that I have not seen enforced and although I'm sure every rule is sometimes enforced somewhere, some are rarely enforced at all while non-rules are enforced all the time.

grolby

We all wish rules were enforced and clear, but our job as racers is not to wait for someone else to make us comply with the rules. It's to comply with them to the best of our knowledge and ability.

grolby

Sorry. Missed this at first.

This. Is. Total. BS. Complying with rules, as a racer IS MY JOB. It is your son's job. If you are punting what constitutes cheating to the officials, you are punting on your own responsibility to understand and obey the rules. The first person who is responsible for whether or not you are cheating is not the chief referee, it is YOU. Don't give this crap about how it's not up to a rider to determine what is cheating. It sure as **** is up to the rider!

Ygduf

^^ lol.

where would we be without guys getting crazy angry about jr. gears and number pinning!

I've been pining for a pinning thread and this delivers.

Enthalpic

You guys are better than me, I've broke lots of rules, some of them were accidents but still

Crinkled numbers
Altered frame plate
Public urination
Pushed and have been pushed
Swearing
Failed to sign in
Yellow line
Littering
Gave food to rider not on team

grolby

If you don't think saying it's not a rider's responsibility to know what's cheating and what isn't is not troubling, I don't know what else to say to you.

Doge

Why do you say that?
So a rider wants to wear a kit with last year's sponsor in the TT and asks the referee who days OK then the rider is cheating correct?

beatlebee 

uh oh, public urination.

furiousferret

I'm a cyclist, therefore I urinate in public.

As Shakespeare would say if he rode a Cannondale:

All the world's a urinal.

grolby

Gosh, any particular reason you want to shift the discussion to uniform rules as opposed to staying on the topic of whose responsibility it is to ensure compliance with the rules?

Suffice to say that uniform rules have a lot of leeway in them because of particular challenges surrounding them - no requirement below Cat 1/2 that team members wear identical kits, for example - and depending on the race, yes, that rider is in violation of the rules. Are pinning rules, junior gears rules, uniform rules, the most serious ones that a rider could violate? Of course not, though there are circumstances under which breaking the junior gears rule could grant substantial advantages. But they're still in the book, they are still the rider's responsibility first, and your unwillingness to take responsibility for following them is still distressing. There are a lot of kids out there who are sweating bullets to check and re-check their cassettes the night before a race. Tell those kids that your kid got away with breaking the rule and that you just shrugged it off as no big deal, and see how they feel about that.

globecanvas

****

gsteinb

I don't think there's anyone left to lock stuff.

Ygduf

life is chocked full of nuance and context. Try not to be too troubled!

gsteinb

since I only ride in my basement I pee against the wall for practice.

furiousferret

This is just like Superman 2 when he lost his powers.

gsteinb

CDR has the star, but I'm pretty sure he doesn't know what to do with it. Botto scared Alejandro off. I quit so I can make fun of RTC and tell fudgy to **** off.

echappist

sweet, the insane are running the asylum!

furiousferret

You want sanity, go here:

Road Cycling

Doge

I thought it was a good test case and close to the whole number thing and close to the OP on. In the OP case and number case we are talking about something the referees have all the facts on. My statement was saying essentially when the referee has all the facts and decides it can't be cheating.
Can you give an example where an official knowing all the facts would allow something and its cheating?

Where did I say that? You may have missed the part about how many races are done. Getting a piece of equipment wrong seems to occur about 1/20 times, from missing helmet, shoes or forgetting wheels in most the kids and I expect a few adults. Getting a gear wrong is something I'm not losing sleep over. If it is discovered at the venue - it should be dealt with (DQ)...maybe.

Maybe because here is another example. Neutral support will not take riders wheel and they say they have everything. Junior rider flats and there are only wheels with illegal gear. Remainder of the race is Boulevard - all uphill. Referee gets the report from support and determines the rider may continue.
Is the rider that continues cheating?

Wylde06

While on the rollers? That has to take some sort of skill I would have never thought of.

Doge

@grolby, @Yep can you give an example of cheating where a rule was broken and the officials allowed it having all the facts, or cheating where it was discovered only later that a rule was broken.

@gsteinb - just in the car with Daniel 10 min ago I asked him if he thought learning about a gear issue 2 weeks later was cheating. He said "no".
I then asked if there was a record set or some significant result should it stand. He said "no, why? Is this some bike forum thing again?"