PSA: "Bike paths" (that are shared with pedestrians) are dangerous.
07-20-18, 02:59 PM
#51
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I might point out that I sometimes have to take direct action to avoid an accident in my car. Which doesn't mean I've ever had an auto accident - I haven't - but it's because I drive and ride like I'm piloting, with constant concentration on my surroundings and on my exact position, etc. Stuff happens. OTOH, I've never had a MUP accident either. Statistically there are more bike accidents per mile on MUPS, but fewer fatalities than on the road. I always try to remember that one injury can spoil my whole season, and I don't have that many left.
07-20-18, 03:02 PM
#52
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"On your left" means very different things to different people. Try it with a big group of pedestrians on the MUP. Some go diving to the right, some left, some freeze like a deer in headlights and others are oblivious you said anything at all, Might as well shout "grenade" as you get the same effect. I avoid the MUP and rarely ride it on the weekends. On the rare ride where I do, it means slow down and enjoy the scenery more that day. And when I pass, if I have a wide berth, I don't say a word as it is safer for everyone in my opinion. If I have to say something, I am totally ready to come to a dead stop.
This. One time I saw a girl freeze right in the middle of the trail and scream "I don't know what to do!"
07-20-18, 03:15 PM
#53
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I have decades of urban and suburban commuting experience …. most of it in cities judged to be the most deadly for cyclists, much of it before there were bike lanes.
Close calls are often the cyclist not riding sufficiently defensively. When you say do you mean that if you rode into the path of a car it might hit you? Do you mean a car trying to sneak through a light? Did the driver see you?
Most drivers do Not want to hit cyclists … they are just clueless and inattentive. I find that slowing down, using hand signals, covering and uncovering my headlight (so ti flashes) or waggling the light all help. I also, from years of experience, know where not to go.
Close calls are often the cyclist not riding sufficiently defensively. When you say do you mean that if you rode into the path of a car it might hit you? Do you mean a car trying to sneak through a light? Did the driver see you?
Most drivers do Not want to hit cyclists … they are just clueless and inattentive. I find that slowing down, using hand signals, covering and uncovering my headlight (so ti flashes) or waggling the light all help. I also, from years of experience, know where not to go.
“Right of Way” is a neat concept … which has nothing to do with surviving on the road.
If you have survived commuting for 10,000 miles and have so many close calls, I’d say … well I won’t tell you a thing. In your case, my advice to myself was to be more defensive. Now I rarely have issues …. Drivers don’t always act right, but they rarely surprise me.
As CF-boy notes: it is possible we notice stuff more on a bike because we feel more vulnerable … or maybe we don’t yield “right-of-way” because we “deserve” it … but cars always win that fight.
I find that the only times I have “disagreements” with cars is when I take the lane and they get impatient, and go into oncoming traffic to pass me, or when I insist on right of way even when I see they plan to go … and I only do that when I am ready to bail out and have escape routes.
See … older and wiser than I.
If you have survived commuting for 10,000 miles and have so many close calls, I’d say … well I won’t tell you a thing. In your case, my advice to myself was to be more defensive. Now I rarely have issues …. Drivers don’t always act right, but they rarely surprise me.
As CF-boy notes: it is possible we notice stuff more on a bike because we feel more vulnerable … or maybe we don’t yield “right-of-way” because we “deserve” it … but cars always win that fight.
I find that the only times I have “disagreements” with cars is when I take the lane and they get impatient, and go into oncoming traffic to pass me, or when I insist on right of way even when I see they plan to go … and I only do that when I am ready to bail out and have escape routes.
See … older and wiser than I.
The deal is this: Nowhere is safe, unless you actually live where there are bike-only paths … and even then you could meet someone salmoning, or people coming around a corner three-wide …. There is some local trails, and whether or not they are “bikes-only/” a blind corner is a blind corner. I need to slow down.
I find—as do you—that riding on roads is a safe and reasonable activity. After all, ten thousand miles of commuting … it isn’t like you don’t know how to manage.
If your main complaint is that there are idiots everywhere … yeah, true. Go find a solution to That and you deserve ten Nobel Prizes.
Mainly I try not to add to the number of active idiots … but as you can tell form some of my posts, my success rate is nothing to brag about.
I find—as do you—that riding on roads is a safe and reasonable activity. After all, ten thousand miles of commuting … it isn’t like you don’t know how to manage.
If your main complaint is that there are idiots everywhere … yeah, true. Go find a solution to That and you deserve ten Nobel Prizes.
Mainly I try not to add to the number of active idiots … but as you can tell form some of my posts, my success rate is nothing to brag about.
07-20-18, 10:32 PM
#54
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Yep, neither has I, although I see them about once a week. Which is why I take it easy on them, for example here's a typical day's commute through the burke near the UW campus, pretty much a landmine field of mixed bikeshares, clueless bike commuters, aggro Cat 6 racers and triathletes, students, homeless, skateboarders and rollerskaters. Pretty much have to come to a trackstand multiple times in this 1 mile part. Not a big deal if you accept that it is the way its going to be. The trail is wide enough for 3 bikes/pedestrians wide, and almost every day I get passed waiting for a safe place to pass whereas others tend to squeeze into gaps that I'm just not willing to risk my actual racing season for.
07-21-18, 12:34 AM
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Why do you think there's a place where you can just ride with reckless abandon? You basically can't do that anywhere in a car, either. You shouldn't do that anywhere while walking. Yes, you have to be alert and ride at a speed appropriate for conditions wherever you ride.
However, it's perfectly safe to ride on the right roads, for the most part. Sidewalks suck. The MUP is another sidewalk, only it doesn't go along a street. You can ride there, but it's not a suitable training ground.
The only places you can really just go crazy are velodromes, veloways, and racetracks (when you can get on one).
However, it's perfectly safe to ride on the right roads, for the most part. Sidewalks suck. The MUP is another sidewalk, only it doesn't go along a street. You can ride there, but it's not a suitable training ground.
The only places you can really just go crazy are velodromes, veloways, and racetracks (when you can get on one).
07-21-18, 12:52 AM
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I had just bought my dream rain bike. It was Domane with DI2, fenders, those ISO Pro carbon bars and climbing switches on the bars. I was finishing up big ride where it had been raining off and on. I was thinking, “ I really like this bike”. 10 minutes later while riding in a cross walk, kid pulled a left hand turn into me and totaled the bike. Now the bike was painted fluo yellow, I was wearing a fluo yellow helmet and rain vest. I additionally had lights on. The cop took a look at me and my bike and turned to the kid asked him how is it he couldn’t see me 😂😂
07-21-18, 01:27 AM
#57
Idiot Pro Tempore
A walker once tried to clothesline me as I passed her on the Burke right around Matthews Beach. Her arm wasn't long enough, but I wondered if she ever hit anyone else.
07-21-18, 10:17 AM
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I had just bought my dream rain bike. It was Domane with DI2, fenders, those ISO Pro carbon bars and climbing switches on the bars. I was finishing up big ride where it had been raining off and on. I was thinking, “ I really like this bike”. 10 minutes later while riding in a cross walk, kid pulled a left hand turn into me and totaled the bike. Now the bike was painted fluo yellow, I was wearing a fluo yellow helmet and rain vest. I additionally had lights on. The cop took a look at me and my bike and turned to the kid asked him how is it he couldn’t see me 😂😂
07-21-18, 10:27 AM
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07-21-18, 01:57 PM
#60
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Okay, this is becoming tiresome ladies and gentleman. First, its not safe on the roads because yield to vehicles. Then its not safe of the sidewalks because yield to pedestrian. Now we have the MUP and again, its not safe because slow down for pedestrian...again.
Is there ever a place or occasion where a cyclist can cycle where it is safe? No dogs, cats, kids, family picnics, flea market, Sunday go to meetin' time, etc.? Is it ever the cyclist turn?
Aren't we law abiding tax payers too? So why are we always relocated to the second-class citizen status? Does anybody ever yield for us?
Is there ever a place or occasion where a cyclist can cycle where it is safe? No dogs, cats, kids, family picnics, flea market, Sunday go to meetin' time, etc.? Is it ever the cyclist turn?
Aren't we law abiding tax payers too? So why are we always relocated to the second-class citizen status? Does anybody ever yield for us?
The other option is ride at night. I run into maybe 3 or 4 other cyclists on a 15 mile ride after sunset.
I have had rides where I see ZERO pedestrians or cyclists for an entire 30 mile ride.
Deer, rabbits and other critters on the other hand, plenty of them.
Last edited by rgconner; 07-21-18 at 02:01 PM.
07-21-18, 02:07 PM
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I am really beginning to think that a gravel bike is in my future. There is a lot of National Forest land that has miles of logging roads. That might be the ticket for me.
07-23-18, 06:01 PM
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The problem with all the "are MUPS dangerous" topics is that MUPs vary greatly in terms of traffic, size, and division between pedestrians and bikers.
Some mups are heavily trafficked, only about sidewalk width, and mix both kinds of riders. On these it's often not safe to ride your bike faster than a fast jog.
Other mups split up pedestrian and bike traffic into separate lanes, are as wide or wider than a street, and/or have few people on them. You can bike pretty much full speed on them.
Also it's not like road riding is without stops and caution. I don't fly through intersection without regard to traffic signals or traffic you know? I agree that MUPS need a different kind of cautiousness in their riding but most of the ones around me are both faster (fewer stops because of intersecting roads) and safer (I'd rather take a tumble off the bike than be hit by a 2 ton automobile). But...I've seen pics of mups in other places that look horrifically crowded and my attitude would be completely different. Like most MUPS in minneapolis are either split into separate pedestrian/biking lanes, or are low traffic enough that pedestrians are only infrequently a concern.
Biking on a trail like this at a safe speed is going to mean biking at an average speed of "fast jog". If you're trying to do faster speeds get the heck off the trail and onto the road:
On the other hand if your trails looks like this when you ride it's pretty awesome:
Other trails are designed to keep pedestrians and bikers separate:
Our lake trails are physically divided between bike and pedestrian traffic, and the bike side is one-way:
The Cedar Lake Trail that goes to downtown actually has 3 separate lanes seperated by greenery, one for pedestrians, one for eastbound bikes, and one for westbound bikes:
Some mups are heavily trafficked, only about sidewalk width, and mix both kinds of riders. On these it's often not safe to ride your bike faster than a fast jog.
Other mups split up pedestrian and bike traffic into separate lanes, are as wide or wider than a street, and/or have few people on them. You can bike pretty much full speed on them.
Also it's not like road riding is without stops and caution. I don't fly through intersection without regard to traffic signals or traffic you know? I agree that MUPS need a different kind of cautiousness in their riding but most of the ones around me are both faster (fewer stops because of intersecting roads) and safer (I'd rather take a tumble off the bike than be hit by a 2 ton automobile). But...I've seen pics of mups in other places that look horrifically crowded and my attitude would be completely different. Like most MUPS in minneapolis are either split into separate pedestrian/biking lanes, or are low traffic enough that pedestrians are only infrequently a concern.
Biking on a trail like this at a safe speed is going to mean biking at an average speed of "fast jog". If you're trying to do faster speeds get the heck off the trail and onto the road:
On the other hand if your trails looks like this when you ride it's pretty awesome:
Other trails are designed to keep pedestrians and bikers separate:
Our lake trails are physically divided between bike and pedestrian traffic, and the bike side is one-way:
The Cedar Lake Trail that goes to downtown actually has 3 separate lanes seperated by greenery, one for pedestrians, one for eastbound bikes, and one for westbound bikes:
07-23-18, 10:06 PM
#63
☢
Yep, that's what I mean. Some feel compelled to walk in the BL even where there is more than sufficient pedestrian space. Sometimes its hard to tell if they do it to intentionally be annoying, or really are just that thick.
Last edited by KraneXL; 07-25-18 at 09:16 PM.
07-24-18, 03:27 PM
#64
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I'll see your "MUPs are dangerous" and raise you the Golden Gate Bridge. That's a doozy. A crapton of riders of literally every skill level, from racer boys in a paceline going as fast as cars, to Strava heroes trying to break the KOM, to tourist riders who have seemingly never ridden a bike, barely moving, and not looking where they are going, weaving all over the place riding 3 and 4 abreast...Throw in blind curves around the bridge supports, roped off areas blocking off half the lane, and peds stumbling around (who aren't supposed to be on the bike side), and it's one of the most chaotic places to be on a bike. It's actually a helluva adrenaline rush, I'll go ride it when I'm looking for some excitement.
07-25-18, 12:54 PM
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Some trails are busy, some arent.
if it's busy, ride under 12mph. If its quiet, ride faster.
Pretty easy to grasp.
there are hundreds of miles of paved trails around me with some busy sections, but mostly quiet to ride as fast as you want.
cyclists shouldnt think they can ride as fast as they want.
walkers shpuldbt think they can walk however they want(oblivious/dog all over trail/in the middle/etc).
both groups can easily make life better for all involved parties.
if it's busy, ride under 12mph. If its quiet, ride faster.
Pretty easy to grasp.
there are hundreds of miles of paved trails around me with some busy sections, but mostly quiet to ride as fast as you want.
cyclists shouldnt think they can ride as fast as they want.
walkers shpuldbt think they can walk however they want(oblivious/dog all over trail/in the middle/etc).
both groups can easily make life better for all involved parties.
07-25-18, 12:55 PM
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07-25-18, 01:25 PM
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this is a road bike forum. Suggesting a fat bike to ride kinda shows there is a riding season.
in Arizona, it's opposite of Iowa's riding season. What?!?! No way could that be a verbally correct statement!
07-25-18, 01:37 PM
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A lot of people aren't so die hard about it. Anyone who doesn't have a season for cycling (rides year round) knows well enough how to pick their own routes that they don't need advice from me about MUPs.
07-25-18, 01:56 PM
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Funny thing about the timing is, Summer is the safest time to ride the MUPs(in this area). At this time of year, very few people use them during the daylight hours. Yesterday it was 115F(in the shade), and the pavement was 188F. My Garmin said it was 126F @ 3ft above the pavement.
Very few people will take their dog out for a walk in those conditions.
Last edited by noodle soup; 07-25-18 at 02:34 PM.
07-25-18, 03:25 PM
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The answer is Ben-Hur hubs.
07-25-18, 03:30 PM
#73
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SF, it’s actually a nice PSA thread about cycling on MUPs, and I’m glad you posted it.
Funny thing about the timing is, Summer is the safest time to ride the MUPs(in this area). At this time of year, very few people use them during the daylight hours. Yesterday it was 115F(in the shade), and the pavement was 188F. My Garmin said it was 126F @ 3ft above the pavement.
Very few people will take their dog out for a walk in those conditions.
Funny thing about the timing is, Summer is the safest time to ride the MUPs(in this area). At this time of year, very few people use them during the daylight hours. Yesterday it was 115F(in the shade), and the pavement was 188F. My Garmin said it was 126F @ 3ft above the pavement.
Very few people will take their dog out for a walk in those conditions.
I think that would kill me.
07-25-18, 05:26 PM
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