Rust remover broke my chain?
#76
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What I have done is dispute some of what you post as fact. Earlier, you insisted that there is no plate stress from the pins. I challenged that and you doubled down, though it seems that you later accepted that there might be. If pointing out you error is an attack, then this forums is pointless. You're apparent lack of understanding of pin stress (based solely on what you've posted), and continued refusal to acknowledge how it factors into what happened, is the main, and possibly only point of contention.
The details are moot for most folks because the message should be that acid baths weaken plates, which should be fair warning without examining the specific mode of failure. However if there's interest is comparing our different theories vis a vis pin stress as opposed to stress risers (absent pin stress) was the proximate cause, I'll be happy to continue. For those who want to think about this of even do some experiments, they might take an old chain, cut it into sections, with some links pinned, and some outer plates with the pins pushed out.
Last edited by FBinNY; 02-13-24 at 05:56 PM.
#77
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....
The details are moot for most folks because message should be that acid baths weaken plates, which should be fair warning without examining the specific mode of failure. However if there's interest is comparing our different theories vis a vis pin stress as opposed to stress risers (absent pin stress) was the proximate cause, I'll be happy to continue. For those who want to think about this of even do some experiments, they might take an old chain, cut it into sections, with some links pinned, and some outer plates with the pins pushed out.
The details are moot for most folks because message should be that acid baths weaken plates, which should be fair warning without examining the specific mode of failure. However if there's interest is comparing our different theories vis a vis pin stress as opposed to stress risers (absent pin stress) was the proximate cause, I'll be happy to continue. For those who want to think about this of even do some experiments, they might take an old chain, cut it into sections, with some links pinned, and some outer plates with the pins pushed out.
#78
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What I have done is dispute some of what you post as fact. Earlier, you insisted that there is no plate stress from the pins. I challenged that and you doubled down, though it seems that you later accepted that there might be. If pointing out you error is an attack, then this forums is pointless. You're apparent lack of understanding of pin stress (based solely on what you've posted), and continued refusal to acknowledge how it factors into what happened, is the main, and possibly only point of contention.
Additionally, I pointed out that the volume of rust formed is many times the volume of the iron oxidized. A very small amount of iron can produce a large amount of rust. Thus rusting really isn’t’ the reason for the chain cracking either. The amount of iron removed is insignificant.
[The details are moot for most folks because the message should be that acid baths weaken plates, which should be fair warning without examining the specific mode of failure. However if there's interest is comparing our different theories vis a vis pin stress as opposed to stress risers (absent pin stress) was the proximate cause, I'll be happy to continue. For those who want to think about this of even do some experiments, they might take an old chain, cut it into sections, with some links pinned, and some outer plates with the pins pushed out.
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#79
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JFC
Is any of this bickering from anyone adding value? In case nobody noticed: Where's the OP? From the actions of all involved, I'd be surprised if he ever logs back to BF ever again.
Did no one notice the conspicuous absence of a picture corroborating the OP's testimonial? Way to go. Well played. Hook, line, & sinker.
Is any of this bickering from anyone adding value? In case nobody noticed: Where's the OP? From the actions of all involved, I'd be surprised if he ever logs back to BF ever again.
Did no one notice the conspicuous absence of a picture corroborating the OP's testimonial? Way to go. Well played. Hook, line, & sinker.
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JFC
Is any of this bickering from anyone adding value? In case nobody noticed: Where's the OP? From the actions of all involved, I'd be surprised if he ever logs back to BF ever again.
Did no one notice the conspicuous absence of a picture corroborating the OP's testimonial? Way to go. Well played. Hook, line, & sinker.
Is any of this bickering from anyone adding value? In case nobody noticed: Where's the OP? From the actions of all involved, I'd be surprised if he ever logs back to BF ever again.
Did no one notice the conspicuous absence of a picture corroborating the OP's testimonial? Way to go. Well played. Hook, line, & sinker.
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#81
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Hmm... this talking about stresses due to the press-fit pin in the sideplate, in a corrosive bath, makes me wonder if any stress-corrosion cracking (an actual technical term), was going on? Just an esoteric point. Lube, don't let get rusty, clean periodically, replace when stretched beyond spec.
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#82
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Hmm... this talking about stresses due to the press-fit pin in the sideplate, in a corrosive bath, makes me wonder if any stress-corrosion cracking (an actual technical term), was going on? Just an esoteric point. Lube, don't let get rusty, clean periodically, replace when stretched beyond spec.
But it most definitely is what caused the OP's chain outer plates (only?) to crack. If you search under "bicycle chain plates cracking" for images, you'll see how common this is.
FWIW cleaning isn't the only cause. Sometime back a major chain maker experienced large numbers of plate failures, not due to corrosion, but rather to tolerance and QC issues.
#83
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Yes, IMO this EXACTLY what is going on. However, there's strong disagreement on the specific mechanism.
But it most definitely is what caused the OP's chain outer plates (only?) to crack. If you search under "bicycle chain plates cracking" for images, you'll see how common this is.
FWIW cleaning isn't the only cause. Sometime back a major chain maker experienced large numbers of plate failures, not due to corrosion, but rather to tolerance and QC issues.
But it most definitely is what caused the OP's chain outer plates (only?) to crack. If you search under "bicycle chain plates cracking" for images, you'll see how common this is.
FWIW cleaning isn't the only cause. Sometime back a major chain maker experienced large numbers of plate failures, not due to corrosion, but rather to tolerance and QC issues.
Last edited by Duragrouch; 02-14-24 at 02:07 AM.
#84
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JFC
Is any of this bickering from anyone adding value? In case nobody noticed: Where's the OP? From the actions of all involved, I'd be surprised if he ever logs back to BF ever again.
Did no one notice the conspicuous absence of a picture corroborating the OP's testimonial? Way to go. Well played. Hook, line, & sinker.
Is any of this bickering from anyone adding value? In case nobody noticed: Where's the OP? From the actions of all involved, I'd be surprised if he ever logs back to BF ever again.
Did no one notice the conspicuous absence of a picture corroborating the OP's testimonial? Way to go. Well played. Hook, line, & sinker.
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#85
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To be fair, some of us, me included, expressing horror and disbelief that he didn’t bother looking after it properly in the first place and was looking for a miracle space material that would let him get away with that was probably ruder and more offputting than the bickering.
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Hmm... this talking about stresses due to the press-fit pin in the sideplate, in a corrosive bath, makes me wonder if any stress-corrosion cracking (an actual technical term), was going on? Just an esoteric point. Lube, don't let get rusty, clean periodically, replace when stretched beyond spec.
Yes, IMO this EXACTLY what is going on. However, there's strong disagreement on the specific mechanism.
But it most definitely is what caused the OP's chain outer plates (only?) to crack. If you search under "bicycle chain plates cracking" for images, you'll see how common this is.
FWIW cleaning isn't the only cause. Sometime back a major chain maker experienced large numbers of plate failures, not due to corrosion, but rather to tolerance and QC issues.
But it most definitely is what caused the OP's chain outer plates (only?) to crack. If you search under "bicycle chain plates cracking" for images, you'll see how common this is.
FWIW cleaning isn't the only cause. Sometime back a major chain maker experienced large numbers of plate failures, not due to corrosion, but rather to tolerance and QC issues.
Placing the chain in a highly acidic solution gave the mechanism for accelerating the cracking along the lines of stress. Almost as if the acid bath caused the cracking.
Since it is unlikely that you will perform the experiment, I guess I’ll have to do it. It’s going to take a while to either find a severely rusted chain or make one in my area. Winter isn’t exactly wet here.
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Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
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Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
#87
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Please scroll back through and tell me where I said anything of the sort.
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#88
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Never use Simple Green or any household cleanser that contains citric acid.
If you have a badly rusted chain like the poster of the original question it would be a lot wiser to replace the chain instead of trying to clean up the rust and keep using it.
If you have no choice then remove the chain and soak it overnight in WD40, then scrub it with a steel wired brush, rinse under very hot water, if afterwards the links are still stiff you maybe out of luck, you can try to put it back into the WD40 overnight and repeat the above process, if the links still come out stiff the chain is definitely bad. Then once that is cleaned up, then use a regular chain degreaser, to take the WD40 off, then either blow the water out of the chain with compressed air, or let it dry overnight, then use your usual chain lube. To be safe however, just replace the chain and forget about doing all that work.
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Perhaps it's time to close this thread down? Andy
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#90
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Citric acid... uh, aren't "citrus" cleaners used everywhere as a more environmental degreaser? I'd love to have an ultrasonic cleaner with dilute citrus cleaner, but no?
Of late, I've been cleaning the chain with an on-bike cleaner, using tiki-torch fuel, which is 99% mineral oil with a bit of lemongrass and/or citronella oil for anti-bug I think; Mostly-full bottles of the stuff are cheap at goodwill at the end of summer.
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#92
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#93
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It's a spirited debate, and I also don't like any rudeness. But, I have learned things, despite my engineering knowledge, sometimes remembering things from college metallurgy that have fallen through the cracks in the mental floorboards, as it were.
For one thing, don't use Simple Green (I tried once, worked poorly, and thankfully no damage to chain), but more importantly, someone advised against citric acid, which I think may be present in citrus cleaners, and I thought that was a widely used, more environmental alternative to petroleum-based solvents? Haven't heard a reply on that question, but I hope to. A quick search brings up Finish Line Citrus Bike Degreaser, been around since 1988, my guess is does not damage the chain. Wiki says citric acid can remove rust, and act as a chelating (cleaning?) agent. It's been 40 years since I balanced a chemical equation, so I've not a clue regarding interaction with steel or aluminum.
For one thing, don't use Simple Green (I tried once, worked poorly, and thankfully no damage to chain), but more importantly, someone advised against citric acid, which I think may be present in citrus cleaners, and I thought that was a widely used, more environmental alternative to petroleum-based solvents? Haven't heard a reply on that question, but I hope to. A quick search brings up Finish Line Citrus Bike Degreaser, been around since 1988, my guess is does not damage the chain. Wiki says citric acid can remove rust, and act as a chelating (cleaning?) agent. It's been 40 years since I balanced a chemical equation, so I've not a clue regarding interaction with steel or aluminum.