How Much New is Too Much for You?
#126
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Altho' i have some cheater 6-speed freewheels (non-euro, too), , nothing vintage is indexed.
for the ethic. All my 70's bikes take me where I want to go just as well as anything new.
New can be great as well - if you require the additional features or for modern glitz.
But then I prefer manual shifting in a sporty automobile over an automatic. As in manual shifting with a clutch. How stupid is that!
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Vintage, modern, e-road. It is a big cycling universe.
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#127
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I recently rode a mountain bike that had been set up with friction thumbshifters -- what a fun throwback to the old days! My issue was that with 11 speeds, it was hard to precisely hit the desired cog on the first try, and "trimming" the derailleur to dial it in was a fairly exacting task, due to the narrow gaps. If it had only seven or eight speeds, it would have been more fun.
My general tendency is to go with friction shifting on drop-bar bikes and indexed on flat bars.
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#128
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Back in 2018 or 19 I actually tested my Lynskey road bike with rim brakes against a guy who bought a brand new bike with hydro disk brakes to see who would stop the fastest. I had 23mm tire on the front and 25 on the rear Vittoria Rubino tires, he had Conti 4000s 25 mm tires all round; I had Shimano 105 rim brakes, my pads were Kool Stop Salmon, and he had DA Hydro disks with factory pads; the total weight of our bikes and body weights were within 5 pounds of each other; we inflated our tires according a tire calculator for a our size of tires and weight; the only rule we had was that we had to stay on our seat and not slide our butts off the back of the saddle to put more weight on the rear this way there was no ability of one person being able to slide further off the rear than the other person could. The test was going to be 3 sets of 3 runs, 1st run was at 15 mph, the 2nd at 20, and the third at 25. The results were interesting, on the first 2 sets we stopped within a foot of each other, sometimes I stopped a tad faster and sometimes he did, that was probably due to reaction time variance; the last set got interesting, the first stop I stopped about a foot and half faster, not a big deal but the second stop I stopped about 3 feet faster, and the last stop I was nearly 7 feet shorter. What happened we asked ourselves? so he touched his front disk rotor and singed his finger and left a whitish burn mark, but didn't singe his finger when he touched my rim though it was hot. What we determined was that the smaller rotor could not dissipate the heat as fast as the much larger rim could and thus he suffered brake fade. The reality is that all a rim represents is a disk, thus rim brakes are actually disk brakes, but the size of rim allows for more surface cooling and thus less chances for brake fade.
Supposedly the problem with using rim brakes on a touring bike is that you can wear out the rim pretty fast, but people have been touring all over the world for over 100 years on rim brakes and they didn't have a lot of issues with rim failures, so not sure if there is a huge advantage there, but if you run into mud disk brakes are more advantageous.
Supposedly the problem with using rim brakes on a touring bike is that you can wear out the rim pretty fast, but people have been touring all over the world for over 100 years on rim brakes and they didn't have a lot of issues with rim failures, so not sure if there is a huge advantage there, but if you run into mud disk brakes are more advantageous.
If there was a difference in total stopping time/distance, it was due to how hard each of you were willing to brake without risking going OtB.
People can armchair analyze this all they want, but it only took one ride with disc brakes to appreciate the improved control and consistency they offer.
The difference in shear power is debatable and IMO rather beside the point.
#129
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I won't have any BB other than threaded, with a square-taper spindle. Absolutely not threadless, not going there.
Similarly, no threadless steerer/headset setups, either. Height-adjustable quill-style preferred.
And no software. I'm pretty sure that I'll never own a bicycle with software. Fine for others, but not for me, on principle, being a software engineer myself.
I have come to appreciate 9-speed cassettes with indexed shifting. And PFTE-lined cables. And padded cork bar tape...
For now, I'll leave it at that.
Similarly, no threadless steerer/headset setups, either. Height-adjustable quill-style preferred.
And no software. I'm pretty sure that I'll never own a bicycle with software. Fine for others, but not for me, on principle, being a software engineer myself.
I have come to appreciate 9-speed cassettes with indexed shifting. And PFTE-lined cables. And padded cork bar tape...
For now, I'll leave it at that.
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#130
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Yeah, threaded BB shells for me
The fact that threaded BB shells are still very common on high end bikes more than a decade after the introduction of PF speaks volumes as to the benefits (or lack thereof) of PF.
The fact that threaded BB shells are still very common on high end bikes more than a decade after the introduction of PF speaks volumes as to the benefits (or lack thereof) of PF.
Last edited by Kapusta; 04-13-22 at 08:47 AM.
#131
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I won't buy a bike unless it has a carbon frame and has hydrualic disc brakes. I don't care about aluminum wheels as those can be upgraded to carbon wheels cheaper than the next step up with carbon wheels from the manufacturer.
I refuse to buy into electronic shifting...Too much reliance on a battery and electrical motors that will eventually break. Not IF but WHEN. I have NEVER had a problem with cable shifter.
I refuse to buy into electronic shifting...Too much reliance on a battery and electrical motors that will eventually break. Not IF but WHEN. I have NEVER had a problem with cable shifter.
#132
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Something is really off here, because if you were stopping as hard as you could in dry pavement without moving your weight back, the limiting factor would not be power or heat buildup: It would be going over you bars. This would be true for rim or disc.
If there was a difference in total stopping time/distance, it was due to how hard each of you were willing to brake without risking going OtB.
People can armchair analyze this all they want, but it only took one ride with disc brakes to appreciate the improved control and consistency they offer.
The difference in shear power is debatable and IMO rather beside the point.
If there was a difference in total stopping time/distance, it was due to how hard each of you were willing to brake without risking going OtB.
People can armchair analyze this all they want, but it only took one ride with disc brakes to appreciate the improved control and consistency they offer.
The difference in shear power is debatable and IMO rather beside the point.
My antique brakes routinely outperform the discs around me. I will normally have the widest tires in the group, be inflated lower than the others, am definitely sitting lower. Wet or dry. Wet is when the difference really shows, most bikes and riders stop fine on dry pavement.
If braking on a bike were as basically unsafe as many seem to think it is then bikes should be illegal. And they would not be popular.
Last edited by 63rickert; 04-13-22 at 10:06 AM. Reason: Correcting spellcheck
#133
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Over the bars excursions are a matter of where your center of gravity is. On flat ground you should never be at risk of OTB. Downhill you must get behind the saddle or you just can’t brake very hard. If at risk of OTB on flat ground you will need to be waaaay back and maybe back and down to brake on descents. If at risk of OTB on flat ground it is only a matter of time and miles before it happens. Just put the saddle down and be safe.
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Look at the post I was responding too. He was describing an experiment where they did NOT shift their center of gravity. Any brake worth a damn is going to put you OTB long before any disk vs rim differences come into play if you don't shift your weight back.
Last edited by Kapusta; 04-13-22 at 10:32 AM.
#134
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I tend to be a bit traditional (aka old school, dinosaur, etc). But I'm certainly open to a feature that works well ... better still if it improves the prior generation or variation.
I've done newer index shifting, but have thumbies currently. I've done disc brakes, but have canti/v-brakes currently. I appreciate exceptionally strong, well-made wheelsets. I've tended to resist the so-called "latest, greatest" drive train changes that hit the market, but my latest bike has a 2x11spd for purposes of achieving low gearing.
I prefer a simpler traditional axle setup, instead of the newer thru-axle arrangement. Though, I'm open to going thru-axle on a future build.
Probably this is where I draw the line: carbon fiber or titanium frames. Myself, I prefer the ride quality (feel) of a decently-designed steel frame. And electric bikes. Though, with old injuries and aging, it might well come to the point I'll need to knuckle under and accept I need the power "oomph" for hills that electric would provide.
I've done newer index shifting, but have thumbies currently. I've done disc brakes, but have canti/v-brakes currently. I appreciate exceptionally strong, well-made wheelsets. I've tended to resist the so-called "latest, greatest" drive train changes that hit the market, but my latest bike has a 2x11spd for purposes of achieving low gearing.
I prefer a simpler traditional axle setup, instead of the newer thru-axle arrangement. Though, I'm open to going thru-axle on a future build.
Probably this is where I draw the line: carbon fiber or titanium frames. Myself, I prefer the ride quality (feel) of a decently-designed steel frame. And electric bikes. Though, with old injuries and aging, it might well come to the point I'll need to knuckle under and accept I need the power "oomph" for hills that electric would provide.
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#135
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A good friend of mine who bought a bike with electronic shifting less than a year ago has on two occasions shown up to a ride and forgotten the batteries.
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#136
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This is true, but I have no idea if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me.
Look at the post I was responding too. He was describing an experiment where they did NOT shift their center of gravity. Any brake worth a damn is going to put you OTB long before any disk vs rim differences come into play if you don't shift your weight back.
Look at the post I was responding too. He was describing an experiment where they did NOT shift their center of gravity. Any brake worth a damn is going to put you OTB long before any disk vs rim differences come into play if you don't shift your weight back.
If bikes just randomly threw riders any time the brake was applied no one would ride the things. The basic design would have been fixed a hundred years ago or bikes would not exist. If you want to sabotage your bike and bet that you will shift weight to the rear of the saddle neatly and proficiently every time hard braking is required you may play that bet. You will lose.
#137
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Just printed a copy of the PGS for the portion of tomorrow's route I am not very familiar with.
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Granted, all of my bikes have good brakes (v-brakes, dual pivot road calipers, or disc). I am sure there are plenty of bikes with without that much stopping power, but the post I was responding to should be comparing good brakes of each variety, not crappy ones.
Last edited by Kapusta; 04-13-22 at 01:39 PM.
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#140
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I don't believe that there is any bike technology too new for me. There are some that are out of my price range (many, actually) but I really like my carbon framed, Di2 11-speed road bike. I also like my aluminum framed, mechanical GRX 11-speed and hydraulic disc brake equipped gravel bike. I also like my aluminum framed 105 11-speed rim brake road bike. I also like my steel framed 105 7-speed down tube shifting vintage road bike. I like to use my Garmin 520 computer, linked to a Garmin RTL-515 radar equpped tail light and a Garmin smart watch. I'm also quite fond of my various Light & Motion USB rechargable head lights and tail lights. I can't wait to see what the future brings!
YMMV
YMMV
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#141
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Actually been there, nearly done that. Was going maybe 10-12 mph tops on my Colnago while on a rec path popular with walking tourists, hence the going slow part. Some people were approaching. All of a sudden one of their children ran out from behind the adults right into my path. I slammed on the DA brakes. I went forward. Back of the bike went up in the air. I was able to shift my weight back just in time to save myself.
#142
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Actually been there, nearly done that. Was going maybe 10-12 mph tops on my Colnago while on a rec path popular with walking tourists, hence the going slow part. Some people were approaching. All of a sudden one of their children ran out from behind the adults right into my path. I slammed on the DA brakes. I went forward. Back of the bike went up in the air. I was able to shift my weight back just in time to save myself.
#143
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I'm open to new technology, but the bottom line for me is whether a new development is really necessary and whether or not it is easy to repair. I like disc brakes well enough, though I never had trouble stopping with rim brakes. I like the extra tire clearance, but I can do without hydraulic brakes. Cables are easy to replace and maintain. Hydraulic brakes have to be bled, a real pain in the ass. It is hard to find mechanical discs on higher end bikes. I wish one could avoid some of the new technology, but once the industry seizes on a new development, you are pretty much at their mercy. I prefer the old quill stems. You could adjust hight quickly and easily. Now you have to fool with spacers and you don't have as much adjustability. I used to use clipless pedals on all my bikes but switched back to flat pedals. Once again I can wear whatever footwear I choose for any given ride. It's all a matter of personal preference. Not being a competitive cylclist, I'm completely free to do whatever I like concerning equipment and gear because I' not concerned with speed. For others, all the latest technological advances are important, and that's fine. Cycle how you choose. It's part of the fun.
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#144
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I was super lame at getting a new garmin 530 to give me turn by turn instructions.
So I returned it and went back to old school printing out a map and clipping it to my handlebar.
So I returned it and went back to old school printing out a map and clipping it to my handlebar.
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Two wheels good. Four wheels bad.
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Two wheels good. Four wheels bad.
#145
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Back in 2018 or 19 I actually tested my Lynskey road bike with rim brakes against a guy who bought a brand new bike with hydro disk brakes to see who would stop the fastest. I had 23mm tire on the front and 25 on the rear Vittoria Rubino tires, he had Conti 4000s 25 mm tires all round; I had Shimano 105 rim brakes, my pads were Kool Stop Salmon, and he had DA Hydro disks with factory pads; the total weight of our bikes and body weights were within 5 pounds of each other; we inflated our tires according a tire calculator for a our size of tires and weight; the only rule we had was that we had to stay on our seat and not slide our butts off the back of the saddle to put more weight on the rear this way there was no ability of one person being able to slide further off the rear than the other person could. The test was going to be 3 sets of 3 runs, 1st run was at 15 mph, the 2nd at 20, and the third at 25. The results were interesting, on the first 2 sets we stopped within a foot of each other, sometimes I stopped a tad faster and sometimes he did, that was probably due to reaction time variance; the last set got interesting, the first stop I stopped about a foot and half faster, not a big deal but the second stop I stopped about 3 feet faster, and the last stop I was nearly 7 feet shorter. What happened we asked ourselves? so he touched his front disk rotor and singed his finger and left a whitish burn mark, but didn't singe his finger when he touched my rim though it was hot. What we determined was that the smaller rotor could not dissipate the heat as fast as the much larger rim could and thus he suffered brake fade. The reality is that all a rim represents is a disk, thus rim brakes are actually disk brakes, but the size of rim allows for more surface cooling and thus less chances for brake fade.
Supposedly the problem with using rim brakes on a touring bike is that you can wear out the rim pretty fast, but people have been touring all over the world for over 100 years on rim brakes and they didn't have a lot of issues with rim failures, so not sure if there is a huge advantage there, but if you run into mud disk brakes are more advantageous.
Supposedly the problem with using rim brakes on a touring bike is that you can wear out the rim pretty fast, but people have been touring all over the world for over 100 years on rim brakes and they didn't have a lot of issues with rim failures, so not sure if there is a huge advantage there, but if you run into mud disk brakes are more advantageous.
#146
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I wholeheartedly disagree. Any one of my road or street bikes would put me over the bars if I clamped down hard enough with my butt in the saddle on dry ground. Leaning back when braking hard is cycling 101.
Granted, all of my bikes have good brakes (v-brakes, dual pivot road calipers, or disc). I am sure there are plenty of bikes with without that much stopping power, but the post I was responding to should be comparing good brakes of each variety, not crappy ones.
Granted, all of my bikes have good brakes (v-brakes, dual pivot road calipers, or disc). I am sure there are plenty of bikes with without that much stopping power, but the post I was responding to should be comparing good brakes of each variety, not crappy ones.
It is always the bicycle that is at fault. It is never rider error.
#147
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, except for the gaspipe. Even metric gaspipe sucks. But then I consider Hi-Ten well above gaspipe.
Altho' i have some cheater 6-speed freewheels (non-euro, too), , nothing vintage is indexed.
for the ethic. All my 70's bikes take me where I want to go just as well as anything new.
New can be great as well - if you require the additional features or for modern glitz.
But then I prefer manual shifting in a sporty automobile over an automatic. As in manual shifting with a clutch. How stupid is that!
Altho' i have some cheater 6-speed freewheels (non-euro, too), , nothing vintage is indexed.
for the ethic. All my 70's bikes take me where I want to go just as well as anything new.
New can be great as well - if you require the additional features or for modern glitz.
But then I prefer manual shifting in a sporty automobile over an automatic. As in manual shifting with a clutch. How stupid is that!
#148
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The designers, manufacturers, and sellers of bicycles have a fiendish plot to kill off all their customers. They sell death machines because they want to see their paying customers in the grave. Good business.
It is always the bicycle that is at fault. It is never rider error.
It is always the bicycle that is at fault. It is never rider error.
I guess not.
#149
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Was the topic of the thread the validity of a test of the heat dissipation of rims vs. discs and their comparative effectiveness? I must have missed that.
TBH, even if the experiment was performed perfectly, it has so little to do with the actual demands we make on our brakes that it wouldn't likely be relevant anyway. Who slams their brakes several times in a matter of minutes anyway?
#150
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But his reply also had little to do with the OP.
I agree that the test in question was problematic for several reasons. I was just pointing out the one that was most obvious to me.