memnoch_proxy

I'm going to try polypro glove liners and see how those help me. I've also plunked down for some neoprene gloves. I'm not a gun nut, just cheap. (The prices on those items is almost too low to validate the shipping costs.)

https://www.vtarmynavy.com/polypro-glove-liners.htm
https://www.copquest.com/12-1413.htm

I'll prolly have some opinions in a few weeks.

mickey85

In the past, I've used fingerless knit-back gloves for 50+, wool work gloves for 30+, el-cheapo gloves-like-these https://www.rei.com/product/786149 down to 15-20, and below that, I use mittens.

daredevil

Not sure what everyone is saying because the answer was back in post #4. Convertible mittens with wool or fleece liners underneath as necessary.

Eclectus

Last winter when we got our first serious cold wave I was in trouble. On one ride, my hands were deeply aching and I couldn't even shift my right--my right-hand fingers refused to work. I couldn't get moose mitts for two weeks because the guy had run out and was waiting for a materials shipment to sew a new batch. So I got polar-expedition mittens as they were on the shelf.

Lesson being, order pogies now and have them when you need them.

Garthr

For really cold hands, mittens are the best choice, as they are the most efficient. Think about it ..... gloves separate the fingers and try to insulate each one.... very inefficient.

The best mittens for those with very cold hands or a circulation problem are from RBH Designs. https://www.rbhdesigns.com/category/169/handwear.htm They use a Vapor barrier technology that stops evaporative heat loss. Instead of wearing and feeling like a plastic bag though, these feel nice all the time.

I've tried every brand type of glove and mitten out there .... from the best expedition mittens from Marmot and OR to cheapos . RBH is the only one of it's kind. What's cool is you can get different liners for different conditions.

Some are put off by the price, but these are hand made by the owner in the USA. You'll only buy them once though!

Eclectus

For this level of money, I'd go with OR Alti Mitts for four reasons:

Gore-Tex ensures total wind and waterproofness, with "breathability" vs. pre-GTX-era cheap and non "breathable" polyurethane-coated nylon.

PrimaLoft is a much more advanced synthetic insulator than 1970s Polar Guard.

I'll take OR's "Infinite Guarantee" lifetime warranty over a 1 year normal-wear-and-tear-not-covered warranty every time.

I'll take REI's full-customer-satisfaction return-for-full-refund (or replacement if you prefer) at any time policy every time.

Garthr

I've used OR's Alti mitts ..... I returned them. I'm big on guarantees also .... from REI and every other retailer and manufacturer you can think of. But, there comes a time when you've tried every mitten, and you need something that works for yourself.

I'm not sure I get your points. RBH mittens don't use cheap coated nylon, you've not seen the fabric. They are designed to keep the vapor in. Do you need waterproof mittens at 20 degrees? Do you need "breathable" mittens that make your hands dryer than they already are? Gore-tex marketing has us believing we need WB material for every condition on earth! The retail industry is pretty much copy cat ..... that's why almost every mitten is the same as the other. Vapor barriers are directly opposite to the WB concept. Until you've tried these mitts.... you really can't say much about them

These use PG 3-D. They would likely be better with the original PG as it was more resistant to compression than the microfibered ones. I've used both PG and Primaloft ..... and PG 3-D is just as good, and bad as Primaloft. Neither is especially long lasting in mittens due to compression.

All the trade propaganda is just that. Until you try all these products and realize what works and to what degree .. . it's all pie in the sky. . . . pie is what sells. What sells is about all that matters to most companies. RBH is a couple of people who make mittens that work ..... and they believe in what they sell. OR, Marmot, Patagonia and NF all pretty much copy each other to sell more stuff .... much of which is average to crappola.

There's pie in the sky ..... then there's reality. We each have our own ..... and in mine pie doesn't fly.

If OR Alti mitts work for you .... they work for you. That's the point ..... finding what works for each of us.

Eclectus

Alti Mitts didn't satisfy you, and you got a no-questions-asked refund. That's a total plus.

Why did you return them?

I have only used mine to -4 F true temp, windchill -18 F, but they were SOOO WARM for a COLD HANDED person, I just can't see where they wouldn't have been good into the negative teens static (-30s WC) at least. Are they perfect? No, because perfect would mean summertime dexterity. I got some SRAM grip shifters on sale, thinking two sets of mittens (inner and outer) might not work with Rapid Fire, but it turned out that the lever shifting worked fine. I'd be ready to get an Epic Designs Alaska-made pogie if I needed ultra warmth and summer dexterity.

Bottom line, if anybody wants to try Alti Mitts, buy them at REI, wear them all winter, or two or three, and then tell them you want a refund, and it's done. Or a new pair with uncompressed PF.

If RBF wants to change its return policy from 1-year manufacturer defect to lifetime return if you're not satisfied, then they'll be saying they have more confidence in their products--and their customers--like OR and REI do for Alti Mitts.

Garthr

I returned them because they were not all that warm for me. The RBH mittens actually have less insulation.... but keep my hands warmer because it keeps the vapor in. This made all the difference for me. Most people won't consider vapor mitts/gloves because the waterproof-breathable(WB) industry has everyone brainwashed into believing it's some sort of standard..... they won't try anything else. The industry gives people what they think they want.

I've been pretty prudent in buying only from those who offer such guarantees.... but as I said earlier ..... there comes a time when you've tried everything and nothing worked so well. So, instead of trying another variation of the same mitt .... try something different. I'm not worried about their lack of lifetime guarantee. If a stitch fails I'll call him up and he'll fix it for a nominal fee. I own a bunch of mittens and gloves though .... and I've never had a problem with any brand. It's the pants, jackets, and shirts that have been the ones that have stitching problems..... especially jackets.

RBH is very small family run operation. Everything is hand made locally in Connecticut. The big companies use the "lifetime guarantee" as a sales tool, and to keep customers. They have the overhead to offer this as they have a high profit margin from their goods made in China. RGH doesn't have this cushion. Some day it may change though..... for now it is ... what it is.

late

Vapor barriers were big in the 70's. For example, down loses insulation as it absorbs water, and in a sleeping bag it can absorb POUNDS of water.

It works, I have a old and cheap pair of downhill ski gloves that are vapor barrier and they are what I have been using on the bike. They work well, and trust me, there are no exotic materials in the gloves.

Eclectus

Vapor barrier liners (VBLs) were used in army boots in Korea.

After this, a SoCal aerospace engineer named Jack Stephenson invented a neat cylindrical-shape backpacking tent. Then he expanded to sleeping bags and clothing. His company, Warmlite, gained notoriety for a 70s catalog featuring himself, his wife, and male and female friends exploring the Sierras au naturale. He later moved to New Hampshire, where his son runs the company today.

Stephenson was the foremost promoter of VBLs for outdoor products. His sleeping bags were highly regarded, premium-tier, for serious outdoor adventurers.

Nonetheless, VBLs for sleeping bags became controversial. Many users complained of discomfort from perspiration condensation. Stephenson lambasted them for being too stupid to vent their bags properly. VBLs didn't become an industry standard in premier-tier bags, but were and are offered as an option by a number of companies, because some people love them, and have no problems tweaking the venting, or don't mind being a little damp.

For active, highly aerobic pursuits, VBLs retain heat, and are popular for foot-covering for cycling, but they do lead to wetness.

You can get expensive VBLs or cheap ones. Produce bag foot covers, dishwashing gloves under insulative gloves, coated nylon rain jackets and pants... Closed-cell neoprene is a very effective VBL, and insulative. Gore-Tex, eVent and other "breathable" laminates actually have significant VBL effects, which is why every laminated jacket for cycling worth buying has venting at the wrists, pits, front, and sometimes back: without these, vapor gets trapped and condenses.

If I were looking at experimentally testing expedition mittens, and I liked RBH's VBL concept, I would call them and ask for a 30-day no-cost, or low-cost trial. The worst they could say is, "You want them for biking? They're not designed for that. Sorry." Or they might say, "That's interesting. Okay, we'll let you beta-test them for us."

If they weren't willing to let me try them out, I'd go with AltiMitts from REI. Doesn't matter that they aren't designed for biking. If, without a VBL, the insulation gets damp and I don't like donning them damp day after day, or they get smelly, REI isn't going to tell me to put on some rubber gloves. They'll just refund my money. After a week of use, a month, a full winter.

I personally believe, as an opinion, that small, relatively unknown makers of high-end "boutique" products, should offer "full satisfaction" policies. Buyers of these goods are investing serious coin, and know how to use equipment properly. You have to trust them (the vast majority). They can provide invaluable information when they return goods and state their reasons for returning them.

For example,when DiNotte entered the bike lights market, they did this. They were unknown relative to cos like NiteRider, L&M (a fairly recent entrant in biking, but long established in UW photo-video lighting), et al. DiNotte offered a "full satisfaction" guarantee. Buy selling premium-priced products to serious enthusiasts, they got invaluable feedback for product improvement.

I bought a 600L light last fall. Less than a week after receiving it, I went to the DiNotte website and whoa! they had a new 800 lumen light that had not been pre-announced. I emailed them saying I would have waited two weeks had I known a more powerful light was out.

I had used the 600L, but it had no signs of wear. DiNotte said, "No problem, send it back, we'll take a look at it, and if it works and still looks new, you can have a free exchange. " (At the time the lights were same-priced). Basically, DiNotte "lost a little money" in that I paid for postage for return and on the new light, but not the original- purchase postage which DiNotte paid for, and in reselling the 600L, they had to inspect, test and repackage it, as well as ship it postage-free to a new customer.

Later a battery went dead. I had used it in temps ranging from 50s to just below 0 F, but one night it went out and couldn't be charged. I sent it to DiNotte on Monday, and Saturday I had a new battery. I paid $4 postage to return it, they paid postage on the replacement.

Fast forward, today we have DiNottes on three family bikes. I'm willing to pay "a little extra" for great products and superb "put the customer first" service.

As an aside, Jack Stephenson got into a protracted internet-publicized run-in with a customer ((who I believe worked at Caltech, maybe an engineer or technician)) regarding a customer- claimed product defect that Stephenson denied, blaming the customer for abusing his sleeping bag. That scared me off from buying a Warmlite bag, and I bet a lot of other people. The upshot was, the debate made it look like the buyer was a reasonable, educated, competent backpacker, while the seller was a cantankerous old curmudgeon, and ultimately, a disinterested observer like myself couldn't be fully confident the seller would stand behind his products. It would have been so much smarter, in my opinion, for the premium-tier-products seller (($700-$1000 sleeping bags)) to say, "You may have abused it, but you can either have a new bag or complete repair for free, or your money back." Buyers in this product echelon who would try to "rip off" the company would be so rare that the cost of placating them would be far less than bad PR like this company suffered from one dissatisfied customer who was internet-savvy.

We bought a used Mercedes long ago, a "Baby Benz" 190D. After owning it for two years, and 4000ish miles past the warranty period, something broke. The dealer fixed it. My wife went to pick it up (they drove her). "No charge." Where do you think we purchased our next car? I can tell you my Toyota dealer doesn't do that, they denied repair on a part the shop manager said, "Oh yeah, these tailgate latches break all the time, that will be $217," nine months after the regular warrantee expired, and the part wasn't covered on my extended warranty either. If I had gotten a Lexus, it would have been a no-charge repair, and it probably wouldn't have broken in the first place (the std warranty is longer and parts quality is often higher.)

Lebowski

i have a set of polypropylene liners underneath neoprene waterproof ice fishing gloves covered by over sized snowmobile gloves.

in weather below 0 Fahrenheit my hands are almost uncomfortably warm. overall set up cost about 70usd. i dig the layered set up, its easily adaptable to changing weather.

Eclectus

[QUOTE=Lebowski;9844104]i have a set of polypropylene liners underneath neoprene waterproof ice fishing gloves covered by over sized snowmobile gloves.

in weather below 0 Fahrenheit my hands are almost uncomfortably warm. overall set up cost about 70usd. i dig the layered set up, its easily adaptable to changing weather.[/QUOT]

There ya go!

If I can suggest anything else, it would be to try grip shifters for anybody who has trouble with their lever shifters; I'm okay with my Rapid Fires (not terrific but it's manageable), what are you using?

sauerwald

I used to live in Maine, and commuted on a bike in temps down to 0F. For gloves I used a pair of gloves that I got at Cabellas. Pinnacle Gloves have leather palms, goretex lining and keep my hands pretty warm.

Lebowski

i have 2 single speed mtb's that i ride in winter. its hard enough to keep stuff spinning

Eclectus

That sounds smart. It's taken me 20 months (100 pound weight loss) to get into condition to make ss even a thinkable proposition. I'm going to give it some consideration.

Lebowski

both bikes are geared really low and you don't need to be an Olympian to ride an SS like mine in the snow.

i have a 29''er geared like a plow truck 34t/23t. it chugs through snow like nobody's business- rims are wrapped in 29x2.3 kenda nevegals. last season i rode it when there was powder up to the axle and it kept going.

the 26'' is 32/16 (32t/18t? --cant remember) i have some huge freeride tires on it too.

single speed is nice, i could ride in mittens if i had to. less components = less stuff to malfunction = piece of mind.

memnoch_proxy

I recently put some gallon sized ziplocks over each handlebar--a cheap moose mit. It keeps the wind off, and should keep the rain off. I rode home only needing a layer pair of neoprene gloves. Looks geeky tho.

Redrom

The vapor barrier approach doesn't make sense to me. Maybe it's because by "winter" biking I'm thinking about temps from 20 to -20 (F). My approach to winter biking is to get rid of the moisture. The trapped moisture chills or freezes and makes you cold. Learn from the Eskimos or the Army. Go with wool for insulation and cotton/leather for the windbreaker. (Remember, at temps below 30 cotton doesn't get wet - the moisture that exits through the cotton freezes on the outside, and then flakes off when your body moves.)

Separately, I have used the Black Diamond Guide glove, biking 3.5 miles at -18 F and found them to be too hot and sweaty for my hands. I had to return them, because that's the coldest it's been here.

late

Google 'evaporative cooling'. Much of the Southwest uses swamp coolers that put the effect to good use.

Vapor barriers do work, and work well, but most don't like them. I liked my gloves, but I hated the idea of a VBL liner in my sleeping bag.

coldfeet

For those looking at Moose Mitts or Pogies, note that MEC now does their own version. I picked up a set, but have not tried them. They look serviceable, and easy to add/remove, they fasten with a pop stud and Velcro.

Eclectus

If somebody wants to make some durable pogies, you could get some one-sided lined neoprene (rubber on one side, nylon on the other, make a pattern, then glue them with wetsuit repair glue. Or two-sided nylon, and sew them. You can get sheet pieces of neoprene for pretty cheap.

Chemical handwarmers work, either regularly, or as an emergency backup, like if you de-glove to fix a flat or other reasons, and realize you've screwed your hands up by doing this.

A compactable down jacket carried in a pack does wonders for keeping your core warm for flat fixes, and rapidly warming your core if it is becoming chilled during a long ride, which will help improve circulation to your hands. Really cold hands are the body's way of conserving core body heat: extremity circulation gets closed down as a first-phase protection measure.

KLW2

I use CliMits and a wool mitten underneath....toasty warm way below 0 F. (well -22F anyway) I got frostbite on fingers and toes when I was young and it just keeps getting worse. This combination works well for me...

here is a review of the CliMitts