one down how many more to go?
09-17-10, 10:24 AM
#26
Senior Member
The site that I can't believe is still up is CEM - that's the "other" site, and was often referred to in eposino. They have a store that sells "research chemicals" (it's like a list of forbidden products). The forum is eyeopening too. I forgot my login but I just went there (to make sure the site was up before I said it was "still up") and the sidebar has hot forum topics "Lance is Done" and "Lemond happy with power outputs". Those seem pretty cycling specific. There was a lot on Masters racing for a while, but I was poking around most when I did my post, so a couple years ago.
There's even a note that cyber-rights.net and another email service were "compromised" and to use a different service. They must have been anonymous email account things.
Personally I think the Papp thing is great.
cdr
09-17-10, 10:24 AM
#27
Senior Member
I think the USADA should have given a grace period (USADA would have had to advertise it somehow) for the dopers to turn themselves in before the USADA notified them of the charges (this option giving them the most leniency). If they didn't turn themselves in and admit only after they were notified of the evidence, less leniency (or none at all), and then none if they fight the charge.
That way they may have flushed a few out that they had missed.
That way they may have flushed a few out that they had missed.
09-17-10, 10:28 AM
#28
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yeah i always find it weird when fans of the mainstream american sports snicker at how dirty cycling is
on one hard, i think endurance sports have a much different ratio of physiloogy to skill/coordination - ie theres no skill as hard as hitting a fastball or shooting a 3 pointer in cycling, but theres no psysiological challenges like TTing or hill climbing in baseball or basketball, so there probably is more to be gained by doping in endurance sports than in ball sports...
but on the other hand, the amount of money at stake in american ball sports is so much more massive than in cycling, and if expereicne shows us anything is that more money at stake means more incentive to cheat, so it seems to me like theres every reason to think the big 3 are just as dirty, but have more money to cheat better, and lobby for protection against strict controls... etc
anyway we all know this stuff it just really frustrates me when baseball fans trash cycling as particularly corrupt.
on one hard, i think endurance sports have a much different ratio of physiloogy to skill/coordination - ie theres no skill as hard as hitting a fastball or shooting a 3 pointer in cycling, but theres no psysiological challenges like TTing or hill climbing in baseball or basketball, so there probably is more to be gained by doping in endurance sports than in ball sports...
but on the other hand, the amount of money at stake in american ball sports is so much more massive than in cycling, and if expereicne shows us anything is that more money at stake means more incentive to cheat, so it seems to me like theres every reason to think the big 3 are just as dirty, but have more money to cheat better, and lobby for protection against strict controls... etc
anyway we all know this stuff it just really frustrates me when baseball fans trash cycling as particularly corrupt.
09-17-10, 10:56 AM
#30
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Not really. You have so called "Natural Bodybuilders" who can't use illiegal stuff like steroids, growth hormone and insulin, but anything OTC is fair game. Then there is the open class which is pretty much a free for all. The testing for the natural class is a joke. Many times it's just a question either verbal or written "Did you use illegal drugs". Uhhhh nope. "OK go compete". Your lucky to get an accurate scale at most amateur shows let alone actual blood or urine tests.
09-17-10, 10:58 AM
#31
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If you've seen female body builders, it would be pretty hard to deny doping. I think they would test positive just being in the same building as the equipment.
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09-17-10, 11:00 AM
#32
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True, but if you are able to hit the ball 10-20% farther (regardless of batting average) those warning track hits are now home runs, or that bump in endurance so that in the 4th quarter of a basketball game you still have the form and quickness to get the jump on your opponent, those drugs can make a lot of difference.
09-17-10, 11:15 AM
#33
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Very up front. Really common discussion in the gym is "what are you on". Be it illicit or legal. That is the thing about bodybuilding. There isn't money in it. Not much gear to buy. Your not going getting rich selling banana hammocks. It is all about the supplement market. What can I buy that is going to make me the biggest freak I can be. It is so absurd it's comical. The female bodybuilders have to be up front. 5'2" tall 180 lbs 5% bodyfat and a voice like Barry White. Yeah your clean.
09-17-10, 11:41 AM
#35
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How does this:
Fit with this?
Body building is so lame!! That is all.
Fit with this?
You have so called "Natural Bodybuilders" who can't use illiegal stuff like steroids, growth hormone and insulin, but anything OTC is fair game. Then there is the open class which is pretty much a free for all. The testing for the natural class is a joke. Many times it's just a question either verbal or written "Did you use illegal drugs". Uhhhh nope. "OK go compete". Your lucky to get an accurate scale at most amateur shows let alone actual blood or urine tests.
Very up front. Really common discussion in the gym is "what are you on". Be it illicit or legal. That is the thing about bodybuilding. There isn't money in it. Not much gear to buy. Your not going getting rich selling banana hammocks. It is all about the supplement market. What can I buy that is going to make me the biggest freak I can be. It is so absurd it's comical. The female bodybuilders have to be up front. 5'2" tall 180 lbs 5% bodyfat and a voice like Barry White. Yeah your clean.
09-17-10, 11:53 AM
#36
Mike Baxter
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There are basically "open" shows and "natural" shows. The "open" shows do not test for anything. The "natural" shows are run under the premise that the competitors are clean or have been clean for a certain amount of time. The problem lies in the testing protocol or lack there of. The shows I did you were simply asked if you were natural. No pee test or blood test. It was really a total joke.
09-17-10, 11:57 AM
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09-17-10, 12:09 PM
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True, but if you are able to hit the ball 10-20% farther (regardless of batting average) those warning track hits are now home runs, or that bump in endurance so that in the 4th quarter of a basketball game you still have the form and quickness to get the jump on your opponent, those drugs can make a lot of difference.
i'm not saying PEDs dont help in ball sports, i just think they help a lot MORE in endurance sports.
but i still think the ball sports are probably dirtier.
09-17-10, 12:28 PM
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09-17-10, 12:28 PM
#43
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09-17-10, 12:33 PM
#44
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right but are we talking performance benefit or financial benefit?
cuz even if the performance benefit is greater in cycling, the financial benefit (and the number of parties with stakes) is much greater in the big 3.
cuz even if the performance benefit is greater in cycling, the financial benefit (and the number of parties with stakes) is much greater in the big 3.
09-17-10, 12:48 PM
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09-17-10, 12:57 PM
#46
fair weather cyclist
who cares about other sports
lets talk about cycling.
how and why did he get from A to B without getting tested or caught?
lets talk about cycling.
how and why did he get from A to B without getting tested or caught?
09-17-10, 01:03 PM
#47
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the point i was suggesting is that the more money thats at stake, and the more people who have money at stake, the greater the pressure to win and incentive to cheat, and further the easier it is to aquire and hide and protect cheating.
i think the counter argument is that a cost benefit analysis of PEDs in endurance sports vs ball sports might tip in a direction that would make the rewards not worth the risks in ball sports even if theres a lot more pressure and money on the line.
why does it matter? i dunno. just talkin. or maybe it matters in that i have an inferiority complex as a fan of a sport that is pretty marginal in the US, and am defensive when it gets kicked around by fans of the big 3. especially when it seems unfair. i hate the implication that my sporting heros (for lack of a better word) are a more morally vacant class than basketball players.
i think the counter argument is that a cost benefit analysis of PEDs in endurance sports vs ball sports might tip in a direction that would make the rewards not worth the risks in ball sports even if theres a lot more pressure and money on the line.
why does it matter? i dunno. just talkin. or maybe it matters in that i have an inferiority complex as a fan of a sport that is pretty marginal in the US, and am defensive when it gets kicked around by fans of the big 3. especially when it seems unfair. i hate the implication that my sporting heros (for lack of a better word) are a more morally vacant class than basketball players.
09-17-10, 01:17 PM
#49
fair weather cyclist
maybe he was never tested, I dont know. do they test all winners @ elites or no?
09-17-10, 01:29 PM
#50
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the guy was a 3 when he began to use the stuff. predictably, his results improved dramatically.
3 years later and one wonder the number of cat 2's and 3's doing it. this list will definitely be interesting...
3 years later and one wonder the number of cat 2's and 3's doing it. this list will definitely be interesting...