Originally Posted by charles vail

long rambling

Originally Posted by charles vail

According to a noted author ( Arnie Baker, Bicycling Medicine) and USCF coach, practicing physician who coached riders to more than 50 U.S. Championships and dozens of U.S. records not to mention his being a frequent contributor to Bicycling magazine and finally a medical consultant to USA cycling and the USCF. I think I trust his findings more than anyone on this board. Oh....and this author is a CAt 1 racer a five time national champion and five time United States record holder. I have read his book and others regarding training and pedaling technique etc. and agree with him on his opinions regarding pedaling efficiency and what really happens when riders have been tested with force meters while pedaling in a lab setting. The fact that racers use clip in pedals has little to do with there usefullness to a commuter riding to work in his business attire. The original poster asked about the safety of clip in pedals if my memory is correct. Either way the actual rather than imagined performance advantages of pulling up on the pedals is overrated and has been shown to have little benefit to performance. The use of clip in pedals for the large majority of cyclers is more of a benefit to manufacturers than cyclists.

Originally Posted by charles vail

Well......it certainly appears that nobody read the part in Arnie Bakers book about optimal pedal stroke and the fact that the pulling forces once thought to be significant have now been shown to be much less than formerly believed. What separates pro cyclists from the rest of us is, their greater downward forces rather than their upward pull or "full circle spin". If you carefully and in an unbiased way analize the upward pull idea etc. you'll find it amounts to very little in terms of performance. Foot retention is another story all together and that has been shown to be helpfull in certain circumstances and detrimental in others. Fast spinning of the pedals, rather than mashing, is a better way to pedal to a point and everyone has their own cadence. Suffice it to say, some foot retention is neccessary and I use either powergrips or looser toe clips and straps most of the time. The foot slipping off thing happens in wet weather or bumpy sections when you are not paying attention but the simpler power grip or toe clip/strap works as well as any mechanical clip, IMHO. Falling, on the other hand, is common when using clip ins, for many riders, usually when the clip is jammed, worn, full of road grit, frozen or inadeqately lubed not to mention mis-adjusted.
I know of a recent case where a cyclist had his cleat come off entirely and he crashed, severely injuring himself when he expected to have solid retention the cleat came off unexpectedly and since he was used to depending on it, he didn't have his foot planted in the same way you would when riding without clips.

All the special shoes/pedals and clip maintainance just seems like another gimick to sell more gear to me and I have used clips and shoes so I am not without actual experience. A grippy pedal shoe pedal combo won't result in foot slip unless you are trying to use hard slick shoes on small slippery pedals like when you try to ride your tiny clip pedals with your slippery dress shoes, two blocks to your buddies house. What I am talking about is maybe a pair of skateboader shoes and "beartrap" style pedal either with or without toeclips and looser fitting straps. This combo is both simple and practical and allows adequate foot retention for wet weather or bumpy roads, allows zero maintainance and quicker easier exit once they are set up. In addition you get to save all that money buying special shoes and you don't have to carry "extra" shoes in case you are forced to walk or look decent for work. Its really liberating riding without clipins with a proper cadence (not mashing) and being able to avoid all the added mumbo jumbo of doing it the other way! ......sorry guys, I remain strong in my beliefs!!!!

Originally Posted by jwc

I agree with Mr. Vail. I only encounter the slipping foot syndrome with slick pedals on the vintage '79 Raleigh Roadster. I have toe clips for my road and commuter bikes, but haven't installed them because there just hasn't been a need. I have ridden club rides in the past, the only rider without clipless, with no problems keeping the pace.

Originally Posted by blackDoggy

Also, when there was snow for a couple of days, I managed to get my front wheel stuck on that white stuff, and promptly landed on my side as well.

What I wanted to tell with the story - clipless certainly can come down to "potential loss of life" if you happen to do the wrong thing in the wrong time and place.

Originally Posted by seriouslysilly

how do they feel with regular shoes?

Originally Posted by squegeeboo

My LBS told me not to bother with clipless because I ride a hybrid for the commute. Any one have an opinion on if they are full of it or actually giving decent advice?

Originally Posted by grolby

I have the book that Mr. Vail is referring to. I have also ridden with toe clips, clipless pedals, and plain pedals pretty extensively.

I have read that pulling up on your pedals is biomechanically inefficient, potentially harmful (indeed, it hurts MY knees) and could sabotage maximum performance by focusing too much on a part of the pedal stroke that simply isn't very effective and ignoring the part that is. There is simply NO WAY to pedal in an even circle, with the same force on the pedals all the way through, without dramatically reducing the force you put on the pedals in the downstroke. The important part of the pedal stroke is the push-down and the pull-through at the bottom ("like scraping mud off the bottom of your shoe"). The one-legged pedaling drills and upstroke-only exercises recommended by some "training experts" are probably worse than useless and a good way to hurt yourself.

Eh, what I'm getting at is that monsieur vail is closer to correct than probably most of us would want to think. For commuting purposes, he is dead on the money, I think. I've been riding to school without toe clips or clipless pedals for the last several months now. The difference is negligible. I do gain some performance with clipless pedals, yes, but nothing huge. For commuting over short distances, it's really not worth it. For a longer ride, it might be worth it, but for the average commuter it's really just a matter of personal taste. We're just getting to work, right? Performance is overrated.

Originally Posted by ItsJustMe

I'm riding clipless on a hybrid. I think it depends on your riding style. As others have said, if you like to stand and mash and really beat it up hills, you'll benefit from clipless.

Personally, when I hit a hill I just downshift and spin faster. I haven't stood up out of the saddle in years. I'm not racing, I'm just going to work and back. I don't really care if I'm clipless or not. Clipless is kind of nice, but I don't consider it essential.

I did discover one clipless benefit this morning. It was 5*F, and when I got to work the power was out so I turned around and rode home. My toes were getting really cold, and it helped to warm them up by pulling upwards, forwards, backwards, etc to try to increase the circulation in my toes.

Actually after this morning, I'm seriously thinking about ordering up some powergrips and starting to wear my insulated waffle stompers when it gets < 20*F.

Originally Posted by charles vail

Precisely my point that one could use any shoe combo that the weather required without purchasing special "riding booties" but instead using what we already have and some simple platform pedals with studs to grip our shoes, boots, sandals etc. For a commuter that is!

Originally Posted by TRaffic Jammer

How could making your stroke more efficient be considered negligible? Finally one person to agree with you out of almost 100 posts. Based on that, your theory does not compute. I'll see his few months going to school and raise with over twenty years of daily riding and real world data. To not feel the difference means you simply aren't doing it right. This, despite what your author says. Performance is overrated? I suppose it depends on how you quantify performance, during a commute. Top speed, cadence, left/right balance, front/back muscle usage, uneven wear of parts? You sir, are grasping at straws.

Originally Posted by chipcom

I still say horsepucky. What works for you is fine, but don't presume that it works for everyone. I spent less on my 'riding booties' that you do on a normal pair of shoes...not to mention that I can walk in them fine and I wear them all day at work. I spent a lot of years riding with clips n straps, platforms and platforms with power grips, and I like clipless better than them all. Deal with it and quit trying to dismiss my viewpoint like I am some newbie racer boy. If you don't like clipless, great, if you do, great. Just like helmets, gloves, jersies, padded diapers and everything else, it's a personal choice.