52telecaster

excellent bike! new freewheels are terrific. i like the sunrace myself. if you are looking for lower gearing you have lots of options with your crank. you could probably go as low as 24 on that granny. i must say i am a tad jealous!

jimmuller 

Some good info here, and a bit that isn't so informative or so pertinent. So...

A traditional 6-spd or 7-spd Ultra used a 126mm hub, but the hub was same as a 120mm hub for a 5-spd. For 126mm the axle is nominally 6mm longer. The non-DS cone is positioned the same distance from the end of the axle as on a 5-spd so the extra length is all on the DS. 6mm worth of spacers are added to the DS. Then the wheel is dished to move the rim 3mm toward the DS.

The implications are significant. It means you can convert between 5 and 6 just by swapping axle, adding or subtracting spacers, and re-wrenching. If the 5-spd axle is long enough you may not even need a longer axle. The downside of a 6-spd is that the extra dish makes the wheel less strong, maybe important if you are a Clydesdale. If your frame really is 126mm and your 5-spd (131mm) axle doesn't reach far enough into the DOs, you could use a longer axle, add 3mm spacers to both sides, keep the dish the same, and use a 5-spd FW. The wheel strength wouldn't be affected that way. You could even add the 6mm to the non-DS and reduce the dish by 3mm, making the wheel stronger (if you do it well, of course). But that would be unconventional.

As for fitting the "wrong" hub width into the DO spacing, it can be done within reason. But it does flex the frame to accommodate the hub. If both stays don't flex the same amount it could produce a slight frame misalignment. More importantly, flexing the stays inward or outward also changes the DO orientation w.r.t. the frame and the other DO. For example, forcing them outward means the pair of DOs is flared outward at the back. The QR skewer will pull against non-parallel surfaces. It may grip well enough and the DOs may flex enough to become parallel under the pull of the skewer. But if the non-parallelism is bad enough it can mean the skewer doesn't grip well. If that is the case then under heavy enough pedaling the axle will slip in the DOs and the wheel will become misaligned, perhaps rubbing the tire on the non-DS chain stay. It happens. Some people never have a problem with fitting the "wrong" hub into the frame, some do. That's why it is a good idea to make the hub fit (assuming the DOs are aligned in the first place).

bark_eater 

Its going to take a few re-readings before all this info is fully digested. Thanks all.

The suggestion of Phil Wood fixed bearings is interesting, especially as there seems like they are more than likely going to be usesable/rebuildable when bought sight unseen on the used market. Expensive though. I'm wondering how the other sealed bearing hubs available new and used compare strength wise to Phil hubs and loose bearing free wheel hubs?

Bianchigirll 

If your running friction no, you just adjust you RD to shift the extra cogs.

Salamandrine 

It isn't the fact that Phil hubs are sealed as much as the axle design is totally different from normal hubs. The axles are like twice as big in diameter and much tougher than the usual 10mm axles of the time. There are other hubs with a similar design. White industries, Bullseye, and some others I can't think of right now.

Many of the 80s sealed hubs (suzue, suntour, etc) were just normal hubs with sealed cartridge bearings instead of loose bearings. Less maintenance required, but they aren't any less prone to breakage.

Since the frame is apparently spaced 126, you could also go to a modern type cassette hub. These are also stronger than old 'standard' freewheel hubs because the bearings are placed more outboard.

old's'cool

So far the OP hasn't acknowledged the recommendation for a freehub. I wonder if the OP has a specific objection against choosing the freehub option, given that the wheel will be built from scratch.

bark_eater 

The OP has an unejumicated dubosity as to the advantages of a free hub if he's stickin with 5 speeds, and is a bit of a professional Luddite.

You just wait till I start asking about bottom bracket dynamos....


P.S But seriously, I've learned a lot from this thread. It could have been a 3 post thread.

1. question about Freewheel.

2. Answer: FreeHub

3. Thanks for setting me straight.

I read your post and appreciate the info about compatibilities of the different generation of freehubs.

My follow up question:

What 126mm freehub set-up will give me 5 speeds spaced for a half step crank without adding any additional dish to the wheel? Do you feel that the axles on a freewheel hub are that much weaker that the trade off of increased wheel dish is worthwhile?

bark_eater 

I found the "Grand Cru Freewheel Rear Hub 126mm" at Velo Orange.

https://velo-orange.com/collections/...heel-hub-126mm

Does any one know if this has a stronger axle than the older designs?

cdmurphy

I don't think those use oversize axles like Phil Wood hubs. They appear to be like the much more common sealed bearing hubs that still use a 10mm axle. (Not ideal, but perfectly adequate for 90% of riders and their riding style.)

Bianchigirll 

I don’t think you can find a 5 speed freehub/cassette hub. Going to a 6 or 7 speed would give the advantage of smoother transitions from smallest to largest or just a larger “bailout” cog.

I think for us larger riders the shorter distance between the drive side bearings and dropout negates the additional dish (did I say that right). On a quality built wheel I seemed to have more trouble both with axle and true on a freewheel hub than with a cassette hub wheel.

However if you only have the one bike then keeping with the free may be easiest option.

nashvillebill

Actually there is a slight improvement in strength with the sealed cartridge bearing design. The sealed cartridge bearing is carried on a threaded sleeve that is screwed onto the axle. This threaded sleeve looks like it is several millimeters longer (towards the dropouts) than the traditional inner race of cup-and-cone bearings so the loading from the hub is distributed further out on the axle. Changing the loading that few millimeters towards the dropouts will reduce the bending moment on the axle and therefore make the axle seem just a tad stronger.

bark_eater 

And I learned something else very useful. Thanks

Salamandrine 

The rear VO hubs do use a Phil style oversize axle, but the front uses a standard size threaded axle. I bought a set a while back during their yearly sale. Kind of surprised me, but it makes a certain amount of sense. I haven't built them up yet, so nothing further to say about them, except they don't come in 126.

Good point. That's true. Clearly though, it is going to be much less of a difference than going to a fat Phil type axle.

jimmuller 

True as far as bending the axle is concerned. As far as spoke breakage is concerned, you won't see any benefit unless you reduce the dish. Which brings me to my real point: OP, why the fascination of using a 5-spd instead of 6? Unless you can move the entire hub to the right by re-spacer'ing the axle and re-dishing the wheel limiting yourself to a 5-spd gains nothing. Nothing at all.

Personal opinion: I'm a big fan of VO. Good stuff at decent prices, and really good customer support.

bark_eater 

They have 126m hubs in stock right now. They look like a good option considering the price.

Salamandrine 

They do, but those are standard axle hubs. Only the cassette ones have the fat axles.

Personally, I'd probably take a chance on a used Phil. They are likely to be fine even if they are old. Ask seller if it spins smoothly. If the bearings are for some reason toast, the company still exists.

Another option is to just use modern cassette hubs in 130, and respace the frame. It's not that hard. You'd want to replace your middle chainring to lose the half step gearing. Might be a bit of a hassle considering that is (i think) and 86BCD crank.

Ghrumpy

SunXCD makes one with 120mm OLN. Large flanges and everything.

You're on your own to make up the cassette though. Probably uses 5 of 8s, or 6 of 9s if you want to go "ultra."

Ghrumpy

Let's flip that: If he CAN re-space the axle, "limiting" himself to 5s gains him a wheel that will be less likely to have spoke problems, and also less likely to have axle breakage. Those seem like much more important benefits than what one more sprocket on the stack is going to get him. (Which isn't exactly nothing, but not much. Not much at all.)

Bianchigirll 

Ah good point but.....as you point out, parts are not readily available. I believe Suntour also made a single speed BNX cassette hub too. I believe shipmano had a early 6spd cassette, before Uniglide that may have been narrower but again parts.

@bark_eater I was reading through the post again to see why you wanted to build the wheel and noted you were 'sticking with 5spd and 700c' I don't see any reference to the size of the wheels on your bike. are they 700c? or 27"? switching to 700c may cause issues with the brakes.

jimmuller 

Well, exactly. You pick a hub that fits your frame and tweak it as you wish. The OP seemed focused on buying a particular hub, builing a wheel, and putting a 5-spd FW on it. Better and easier to start with any old hub and have a plan about what to do with it. Compared to building the wheel itself optimizing the hub and wheel dish is trivial.

fietsbob

I used a Phil Wood Freewheel hub to build my touring bike wheel, because they made the axles so strong they never bend at all..
126, it is for 6 speed freewheels..

a common hub with a 10x1 threaded axle can break, but they are cheap to replace..

repechage

Yes, Phil Wood hubs.
Avoid splined freewheels, I would go with Suntour of some type. Oversized axles where the diameter is helpful.

bark_eater 

The bike presently has 27" wheels. I want to change to 700c wheels if I can fit 38mm tires under fenders. I get that I may have to switch-out the original brakes. I'm going to get the bike on the road with its original 27" wheels this summer, so I can actually gauge whether 700cs are an improvement.