Where have all the good bikes gone?
01-28-13, 06:43 AM
#101
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Auchen, I think the pivotal word in your question is "good", as in what is the definition of a "good" bike? I check the same Craigslist postings that you do, and I have to admit I have noticed fewer low-priced gems and more high-priced low-end items. But I don't believe I have ever seen one of the bikes you named for sale in the three or four years I've been looking.
I guess if the entry-level Schwinns and their counterparts, for example, are not "good" bikes, then, yes, I'd agree there aren't many better bikes to choose from on CL; but then, I can't say there ever were many of the high-end bargain priced bikes to begin with.
Last weekend, I bought a Schwinn Continental II for $35 from a buyer of storage lockers; he had originally advertised it for $75, then $50. I bought it mainly because I wanted the leather toolbag that was hanging from the saddle. Once I got it home, I immediately cleaned and treated that toolbag and put it on my wife's Raleigh Sports to replace, at long last, the one that disappeared on a trip to Grand Haven.
I felt this was a bargain because I wanted the toolbag, which can be hard to find on CL or at yard sales, but there are plenty of overpriced ones on eBay. So it's like I paid the market price for the toolbag, with a bike attached to it for free.
And, despite the prevailing opinion here on C&V, I like flipping Varsitys and Continentals. They are affordable. It's very rare anyone buys a bike from me that is priced much more than $100, and I know most flippers here won't touch a bike that doesn't bring that much in profit.
The price of C&V bikes may be going up, but every buyer I see is expecting a bargain for an old bike. My latest sale was a 1982 LeTour for $150, and that is the high end for me.
I guess if the entry-level Schwinns and their counterparts, for example, are not "good" bikes, then, yes, I'd agree there aren't many better bikes to choose from on CL; but then, I can't say there ever were many of the high-end bargain priced bikes to begin with.
Last weekend, I bought a Schwinn Continental II for $35 from a buyer of storage lockers; he had originally advertised it for $75, then $50. I bought it mainly because I wanted the leather toolbag that was hanging from the saddle. Once I got it home, I immediately cleaned and treated that toolbag and put it on my wife's Raleigh Sports to replace, at long last, the one that disappeared on a trip to Grand Haven.
I felt this was a bargain because I wanted the toolbag, which can be hard to find on CL or at yard sales, but there are plenty of overpriced ones on eBay. So it's like I paid the market price for the toolbag, with a bike attached to it for free.
And, despite the prevailing opinion here on C&V, I like flipping Varsitys and Continentals. They are affordable. It's very rare anyone buys a bike from me that is priced much more than $100, and I know most flippers here won't touch a bike that doesn't bring that much in profit.
The price of C&V bikes may be going up, but every buyer I see is expecting a bargain for an old bike. My latest sale was a 1982 LeTour for $150, and that is the high end for me.
While there is nothing wrong with entry level bikes (I'm building a Raleigh Record for my own keeper fleet at the moment!) it is very difficult
for me to break even on resale. When I made the mistake of doing the math, I found I was typically spending ~ $100 into every flip, when considering parts and supplies (including the value of spares form my own stash), S&H from Niagara, and my gas to & fro. < And that is ABOVE AND BEYOND the purchase price of the bike, thus I'd have to be getting the low-end bikes for free to break even.
- So why not spend the same amount of time and money on a mid-level bike, that I could sell for more?
- Because after a point, I could not find Mid-level Columbus, Reynolds or Tange-framed bikes for $20-40 anymore.
So I pretty-much gave up flipping. (Though I still take on the occasional project because I still like working on bikes
).Fast forward....
- I'm looking for a particular bike, for my own stable... Nary a one for 200 miles. I can look at a hot market, like Chicago's, and lo-and-behold! My desideratum is there waiting for me, but at what I consider a perfectly ludicrous price -(especially when you add in the 2 tanks of gas coming and going).
This is why I ask "where have the good bikes gone". -Don't think that I'm dissing low-end bikes. I'm not. Rather, it's just that the availability and pricing for C&V bikes of any kind seems so out of whack with my expectations -and probably for all of the reasons cited by the contributors to this thread.
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01-28-13, 08:16 AM
#103
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That's pretty much what I see too, Guzziee. In some cases, I find used generic bikes for nearly the same price tha7 it would cost to buy new from Wal-Mart.
I did find a Peugeot off of Ebay that I think might fit me....grabedb it at the last minute and hopefully will fit me when it's mailed off.
I did find a Peugeot off of Ebay that I think might fit me....grabedb it at the last minute and hopefully will fit me when it's mailed off.
01-28-13, 08:32 AM
#104
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That's pretty much what I see too, Guzziee. In some cases, I find used generic bikes for nearly the same price tha7 it would cost to buy new from Wal-Mart.
I did find a Peugeot off of Ebay that I think might fit me....grabedb it at the last minute and hopefully will fit me when it's mailed off.
I did find a Peugeot off of Ebay that I think might fit me....grabedb it at the last minute and hopefully will fit me when it's mailed off.
I was able to find three thrift store bikes last year, a rattlecanned Cannondale for $30 (it had good wheels), a tired late 70s Nishiki Competition for $25 (found both of those at the same time, grabbed them quick), and a 1988/1989 Schwinn Sprint for $20. But that was it. I must have seen a thousand Xmart bikes at thrift stores in the last year (I go a lot).
In the "good old days" I was finding 50 good vintage bikes at thrift stores a year, in the $10 to $20 price range. Those days are long gone.
I did just buy a XS Paramount MTB frameset off fleecebay, paid too much. But its a family build, and I have all the parts needed to complete laying around here. So I still won't have that much $$ into the finished product, and it should be a nice bike when I am done. And its a Panasonic built Schwinn, which I am partial to.
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Please don't confuse ebay "asking" prices with "selling" prices. Many sellers never get their ask price. some are far from it. Value is determined once an item actually SELLS. Its easy enough to check SOLD prices.
Please don't confuse ebay "asking" prices with "selling" prices. Many sellers never get their ask price. some are far from it. Value is determined once an item actually SELLS. Its easy enough to check SOLD prices.
01-28-13, 09:41 AM
#105
Still learning
David -
While there is nothing wrong with entry level bikes (I'm building a Raleigh Record for my own keeper fleet at the moment!) it is very difficult
for me to break even on resale. When I made the mistake of doing the math, I found I was typically spending ~ $100 into every flip, when considering parts and supplies (including the value of spares form my own stash), S&H from Niagara, and my gas to & fro. < And that is ABOVE AND BEYOND the purchase price of the bike, thus I'd have to be getting the low-end bikes for free to break even.
- So why not spend the same amount of time and money on a mid-level bike, that I could sell for more?
- Because after a point, I could not find Mid-level Columbus, Reynolds or Tange-framed bikes for $20-40 anymore.
So I pretty-much gave up flipping. (Though I still take on the occasional project because I still like working on bikes).
Fast forward....
- I'm looking for a particular bike, for my own stable... Nary a one for 200 miles. I can look at a hot market, like Chicago's, and lo-and-behold! My desideratum is there waiting for me, but at what I consider a perfectly ludicrous price -(especially when you add in the 2 tanks of gas coming and going).
This is why I ask "where have the good bikes gone". -Don't think that I'm dissing low-end bikes. I'm not. Rather, it's just that the availability and pricing for C&V bikes of any kind seems so out of whack with my expectations -and probably for all of the reasons cited by the contributors to this thread.
While there is nothing wrong with entry level bikes (I'm building a Raleigh Record for my own keeper fleet at the moment!) it is very difficult
for me to break even on resale. When I made the mistake of doing the math, I found I was typically spending ~ $100 into every flip, when considering parts and supplies (including the value of spares form my own stash), S&H from Niagara, and my gas to & fro. < And that is ABOVE AND BEYOND the purchase price of the bike, thus I'd have to be getting the low-end bikes for free to break even.
- So why not spend the same amount of time and money on a mid-level bike, that I could sell for more?
- Because after a point, I could not find Mid-level Columbus, Reynolds or Tange-framed bikes for $20-40 anymore.
So I pretty-much gave up flipping. (Though I still take on the occasional project because I still like working on bikes
).Fast forward....
- I'm looking for a particular bike, for my own stable... Nary a one for 200 miles. I can look at a hot market, like Chicago's, and lo-and-behold! My desideratum is there waiting for me, but at what I consider a perfectly ludicrous price -(especially when you add in the 2 tanks of gas coming and going).
This is why I ask "where have the good bikes gone". -Don't think that I'm dissing low-end bikes. I'm not. Rather, it's just that the availability and pricing for C&V bikes of any kind seems so out of whack with my expectations -and probably for all of the reasons cited by the contributors to this thread.
Auchencrow you have very high standards and every bike in your collection is better than showroom new. If I recall correctly, on every flip, you put brand new chain, freewheel, Jagwire cables, housing, tubes, bearings, brake pads, and Panaracers. If the spread between your costs and sales proceeds are out of whack, and you can't get your costs down, I think if you still like to work on bikes, FWIW perhaps the Dr. Cannondale model would work?
Dr. Cannondale picks and chooses his projects, but specializes in what appears to be a fair number of open credit card restorations. You have the expertise, skills, tools, and creditability to establish a niche as a BIKE DETAILER for all those deep pocketed Detroit suburbanites whose neglected C & V bikes are being snubbed by the LBS or beyond the skills of the teenager/racer wannabe.
Dealing with rust, paint touch up, tracking down period correct parts is a craft, not a commodity skill. That guy in Fenton, Hughsbicycle.blogspot.com, appears to have some interesting projects walk in his door.
01-28-13, 09:54 AM
#106
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So one of the answers to the question is being repeated over and over. It's XMart's fault... Instead of taking a trip to the LBS and buying a quality machine, the masses have migrated to the big box stores over the past decade to buy brand X bike for half the cost. That's why relatively new models are popping up in thrift stores and on CL.
There's a couple of days old thread over in the Fixed Gear section about a $35 fixie on clearance at Target. You'll see most of those up for re-sale in a matter of weeks - just as soon as part X breaks and they realize it'll cost more to fix than they paid for the bike.
This is only part of the "problem" though...
From what I've seen, older, "quality" bikes are still in use. Like one of the previous posters said, they've just trickled down to people who are actually using them (I think he referenced migrant farm workers) - They're just not sitting in garages anymore.
This is due largely in part to the economy, high gas prices, and surge in population of lower-income families. I live in a fairly depressed area, and I see old cruisers, roadies, etc. being used EVERY day. And I NEVER see them at thrift shops. I hate to bring illegal aliens in to the thread, but what do you think the tens of millions of folks who can't legally apply for a drivers license use for transportation?
And maybe a little has to due with the fairly recent upswing in "fixie" culture. Every time I go to watch a clip on youtube of, say, "2007 KONA IRONMAN Highlights" or "Chrissie Wellington Interview" the recommended video playlist on the right reads something like "Awesome Trix on Fixies" and "Bike messengers are the real deal" for no apparent reason other than they have the highest view count.
So the good news is people are using the bikes, and the bad news is that people are using the bikes.
There's a couple of days old thread over in the Fixed Gear section about a $35 fixie on clearance at Target. You'll see most of those up for re-sale in a matter of weeks - just as soon as part X breaks and they realize it'll cost more to fix than they paid for the bike.
This is only part of the "problem" though...
From what I've seen, older, "quality" bikes are still in use. Like one of the previous posters said, they've just trickled down to people who are actually using them (I think he referenced migrant farm workers) - They're just not sitting in garages anymore.
This is due largely in part to the economy, high gas prices, and surge in population of lower-income families. I live in a fairly depressed area, and I see old cruisers, roadies, etc. being used EVERY day. And I NEVER see them at thrift shops. I hate to bring illegal aliens in to the thread, but what do you think the tens of millions of folks who can't legally apply for a drivers license use for transportation?
And maybe a little has to due with the fairly recent upswing in "fixie" culture. Every time I go to watch a clip on youtube of, say, "2007 KONA IRONMAN Highlights" or "Chrissie Wellington Interview" the recommended video playlist on the right reads something like "Awesome Trix on Fixies" and "Bike messengers are the real deal" for no apparent reason other than they have the highest view count.
So the good news is people are using the bikes, and the bad news is that people are using the bikes.
Last edited by ShoreCyclist; 01-28-13 at 10:01 AM.
01-28-13, 10:04 AM
#107
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i'm starting to think that the vintage 1930's - 1950's French bike scene is the place to be. It takes a special kind of C&V weirdo to want to collect and work on chainstay-mounted rear derailleurs or rod-actuated front derailleurs. No, you won't find them down the thrift store or by the curb (at least in the USA) but there seems to be a steady supply of ready-for-restoration bikes coming out of France at sub-$500 prices. I doubt this Mercier I'm working on will be my last.
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01-28-13, 12:09 PM
#108
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FWIW perhaps the Dr. Cannondale model would work? Dr. Cannondale picks and chooses his projects, but specializes in what appears to be a fair number of open credit card restorations.
Buying bikes and frames these days is harder than it used to be, I agree- for all of the reasons already mentioned and some we haven't yet figured out. Key is to know what's worth buying and can be resold, be ready with cash on hand, and act in the moment.
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01-28-13, 12:26 PM
#109
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i'm starting to think that the vintage 1930's - 1950's French bike scene is the place to be. It takes a special kind of C&V weirdo to want to collect and work on chainstay-mounted rear derailleurs or rod-actuated front derailleurs. No, you won't find them down the thrift store or by the curb (at least in the USA) but there seems to be a steady supply of ready-for-restoration bikes coming out of France at sub-$500 prices. I doubt this Mercier I'm working on will be my last.
01-28-13, 12:54 PM
#110
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01-28-13, 01:05 PM
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Normally at this time I have 15 to 17 bikes to sell for the Westminster Swapmeet. This year, I'll have 3
or maybe 4 ... I really feel that the "good ole" days are over. Oh well, I needed a break anyway. I put
to much time, energy, and money (inc gas) into making the bikes worthy and safe for resale.
But, on another note .... I still do motorcycles and cars !!
!0 -4 over and out,
Johnnybee.
or maybe 4 ... I really feel that the "good ole" days are over. Oh well, I needed a break anyway. I put
to much time, energy, and money (inc gas) into making the bikes worthy and safe for resale.
But, on another note .... I still do motorcycles and cars !!
!0 -4 over and out,
Johnnybee.
01-28-13, 01:08 PM
#112
Senior Member
wow, bob, you're right. i searched eBay.fr to try to prove you wrong and could not find a 59-60cm rando bike for sale. 
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01-28-13, 02:34 PM
#113
What??? Only 2 wheels?
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Every so often I check ebay for frames in the range of 57-59, and I see almost nothing under $400. Well maybe the occasional Raleigh Gran Prix or Schwinn Varsity, but I'm not going to make a project out of those, with or without fava beans.
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01-28-13, 03:43 PM
#114
KingoftheMountain wannabe
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I have a lot of trouble finding the bikes that I want in my size. I normally ride a 63cm, but I can go to a 60cm at worst if I want to use a lot of seatpost. I don't have trouble finding bikes my size, but finding holy grails for a reasonable price in my size. Did Masi even make something bigger than a 60cm in the 70's?
01-28-13, 07:06 PM
#116
Thrifty Bill
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I am over ten bikes picked up since the first of the year (2013). Picked up another one this afternoon (oh yeah, I forgot I picked one up yesterday as well). Good thing I passed on six bikes on a recent road trip. Its really getting ridiculous.
01-28-13, 07:20 PM
#117
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It's ok.
I went through a spurt like that three years ago.
Took me over a year to sell them all.
Most of the nice bicycles I have currently came from that effort.
01-28-13, 08:40 PM
#118
Still learning
There appear to be doable deals in NJ, but Michigan has been dry (rot)!
01-29-13, 03:16 AM
#119
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the economy has made this country the land of the vultures... I'm still looking for my first c&v but all i see is a barren wasteland...
01-29-13, 07:20 AM
#120
Senior Member
Where have all the good bikes gone?
When I am buying a bike this is what I hear from sellers.
"I used to be a plumber, now I go to garage sales and look for stuff to resell".
I worked at the newspaper for 25 yrs, got laid off.
Thirty years at a pharmaceutical company. Laid off. I'm turning 60 this year. Why would anyone want to hire me.
They are all bike flippers. And the ecomomy is in recovery because the stock market is at the same level it was 4 yrs ago. Doesnt that mean we are 4 yrs behind?
"I used to be a plumber, now I go to garage sales and look for stuff to resell".
I worked at the newspaper for 25 yrs, got laid off.
Thirty years at a pharmaceutical company. Laid off. I'm turning 60 this year. Why would anyone want to hire me.
They are all bike flippers. And the ecomomy is in recovery because the stock market is at the same level it was 4 yrs ago. Doesnt that mean we are 4 yrs behind?
01-29-13, 07:46 AM
#121
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I have a lot of trouble finding the bikes that I want in my size. I normally ride a 63cm, but I can go to a 60cm at worst if I want to use a lot of seatpost. I don't have trouble finding bikes my size, but finding holy grails for a reasonable price in my size. Did Masi even make something bigger than a 60cm in the 70's?
). For years and years, they were easy to find and priced low (I paid just over 200 for a near perfect Somec with a Campy mishmash on ebay, for goodness sakes). However, I was recently talking to one of the bigger used/vintage dealers in the DC area, and he no longer can keep the big ones in stock. Things change, I accept that.
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01-29-13, 12:20 PM
#122
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I was recently talking to one of the bigger used/vintage dealers in the DC area
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01-29-13, 01:23 PM
#123
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I've never had any trouble finding high end stuff in that size range, and have a guest bedroom full of bikes in that range (that must be where they all are). For years and years, they were easy to find and priced low (I paid just over 200 for a near perfect Somec with a Campy mishmash on ebay, for goodness sakes). However, I was recently talking to one of the bigger used/vintage dealers in the DC area, and he no longer can keep the big ones in stock. Things change, I accept that.
). For years and years, they were easy to find and priced low (I paid just over 200 for a near perfect Somec with a Campy mishmash on ebay, for goodness sakes). However, I was recently talking to one of the bigger used/vintage dealers in the DC area, and he no longer can keep the big ones in stock. Things change, I accept that.It's great too as these tall people look great and............can better defend the planet when the giant aliens finally come to invade us!!!....bwahahaha!
Chombi
01-29-13, 02:10 PM
#124
Still learning
Maybe, everyone's just getting taller......Just for instance, the American Asians that I work with, specially young Koreans and Chinese (descent).....lots of them over six foot tall these days. Even the women are taller. It's not unusual to see young Korean women at least 5'-10" tall!.... So maybe they're all buying these 60+cm sized bikes.....My Chinese and Korean classmates back in my college days certainly weren't that tall..... Maybe now you have to find the smallest frame you can buy to maybe get a bargain??
It's great too as these tall people look great and............can better defend the planet when the giant aliens finally come to invade us!!!....bwahahaha!
Chombi
It's great too as these tall people look great and............can better defend the planet when the giant aliens finally come to invade us!!!....bwahahaha!
Chombi
In Ann Arbor, there is no shortage of buyers over 5'8" for the larger frames. It's hard to find frames for tall women who want a mixte or step thru.
01-29-13, 02:20 PM
#125
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Lol, here in The low countries with tall people i see a lot 54-56 frames advertised as junior or woman bikes