Are 1X the future of road cycling?
09-06-17, 02:45 PM
#101
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Chains drop off big rings with no shifting. Bumps and corners and out-of-the-saddle sprinting can do it. Off round rings do it more.
As I mentioned - this is now racing - TT. I've never used a double for a TT bike for me, wife or kid - or most team bikes I've built. So the bikes are setup that way from the start. The FD is used as a chain catcher only.
There is conflicting data but the thought is bigger-bigger is better than smaller smaller. So 52X14 is better than 45X12 (same gear). There is less chain tension and better chain alignment. If the ride is going to take place on a ~100in gear (52X14) then it is better to get that 14 more toward the middle, or whatever cog will be used toward the middle. All this stuff amounts to maybe 2-3W but TTs often have places split by 1 sec.
As I mentioned - this is now racing - TT. I've never used a double for a TT bike for me, wife or kid - or most team bikes I've built. So the bikes are setup that way from the start. The FD is used as a chain catcher only.
There is conflicting data but the thought is bigger-bigger is better than smaller smaller. So 52X14 is better than 45X12 (same gear). There is less chain tension and better chain alignment. If the ride is going to take place on a ~100in gear (52X14) then it is better to get that 14 more toward the middle, or whatever cog will be used toward the middle. All this stuff amounts to maybe 2-3W but TTs often have places split by 1 sec.
09-06-17, 02:54 PM
#102
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he's using a narrow wide or single ring chainring which has better retention since the teeth don't have to be shaped to optimize shifting between rings
09-06-17, 03:01 PM
#103
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(Presumably, the front derailleur is fixed in this application?)
09-06-17, 03:10 PM
#104
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This time - I wanted to hold the chain in place.
The difference is no small ring, no cables to a FD and the FD (can't tell by picture) is so low the chain cannot come off, or shift. The FD is lower than a normal two ring setup where the chain can come off.
09-06-17, 03:14 PM
#106
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Some place 70s, and a bit the 80s the only pro racing was the TdF type stuff - at least from the USA perspective. Sure there was Japan. There was cross and track. America didn't build bikes recognized as world class. Sometimes they were build better, stronger, but just didn't feel the same. So Euro TdF like pro racing and racers drove almost all of the market.
Now we have "road", gravel, MTB, hill climbing, fat tire and still the others. I can't count how many National Jerseys can be won in cycling but seems over 200 to me.
So it is clear that the pros have less influence than they did. USA has it's own market and pros might influence it, but less than they did. It is very hard in a Road Cycling forum to get common agreement on what Road Cycling is. The future is great for those that bike and there are lots of equipment options. For the sport of cycling, the pro sport, it is rather dim.
Now we have "road", gravel, MTB, hill climbing, fat tire and still the others. I can't count how many National Jerseys can be won in cycling but seems over 200 to me.
So it is clear that the pros have less influence than they did. USA has it's own market and pros might influence it, but less than they did. It is very hard in a Road Cycling forum to get common agreement on what Road Cycling is. The future is great for those that bike and there are lots of equipment options. For the sport of cycling, the pro sport, it is rather dim.
09-06-17, 03:29 PM
#108
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Maybe you missed when I posted #93
That setup is a "normal" large ring of a normal 2 ring front chain-set. It is designed to derail.
As I've been doing this since the 80s, and made the mistake of not holding the chain in place https://www.bikeforums.net/19843198-post75.html
This time - I wanted to hold the chain in place.
The difference is no small ring, no cables to a FD and the FD (can't tell by picture) is so low the chain cannot come off, or shift. The FD is lower than a normal two ring setup where the chain can come off.
That setup is a "normal" large ring of a normal 2 ring front chain-set. It is designed to derail.
As I've been doing this since the 80s, and made the mistake of not holding the chain in place https://www.bikeforums.net/19843198-post75.html
This time - I wanted to hold the chain in place.
The difference is no small ring, no cables to a FD and the FD (can't tell by picture) is so low the chain cannot come off, or shift. The FD is lower than a normal two ring setup where the chain can come off.
Here's my thoughts:
1. I don't think single chain rings will replace doubles on road bikes because the step sizes in the gearing are too large with a single chain ring. I also don't think dropped chains are a big problem for the vast majority of riders, so a single chain ring is effectively a "solution looking for a problem."
2. If dropped chains are a serious problem for racers, then I think there likely is a simple solution to prevent it. For instance, it is easy to imagine something (like a clutched rear derailleur) where a small lever could move the front derailleur into a lower position that prevents chain drops. In the other position, you would have a normal double chain ring setup. If you're in a situation where you only need your big ring, just flip the lever.
09-06-17, 03:31 PM
#109
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Okay, but your original question was whether single chain rings were the future of road bikes. Time trial bikes ridden at 30+ mph are a pretty small niche. I don't think you can extend your argument to road bikes.
09-06-17, 03:34 PM
#110
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Then why the hell, every time one of these pro guys gets in a crash and blames a disc, it becomes the top cycling story for the following 3 months, and creates thread after thread of the same freaking topic on cycling forums? I'm far from the only one who has made this statement as well, so this is still the prevailing feeling. There would be hardly any discussion of disc brakes if the professionals had no influence on the market.
09-06-17, 03:51 PM
#111
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I'm not moving the goal or target. I first started with a road bike - same bike used for climbing hills and in P123 races with a 1X. I mentioned the MTB was a 1x. I showed a TT bike that was a 1X and I posted pictures of my 1X from the 80s. So I'm giving a broad spectrum of where a 1X can work.
You made some comment about juniors (I do not have a junior racer), but as they are gear restricted I'd think it an even better choice. P123 races are generally slower and less active than the competitive junior races so I expect P123s can take the slower shifts, dropped chains better than juniors can. I expect juniors copy pros. A 1X sounds like a great setup if doing all over again.
Do I think 1X are the future of road cycling (racing)? More than discs, or gravel, but no.
For rec - maybe. They are so simple and you saw my list.
09-06-17, 04:09 PM
#112
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Thanks for the additional info.
Here's my thoughts:
1. I don't think single chain rings will replace doubles on road bikes because the step sizes in the gearing are too large with a single chain ring. I also don't think dropped chains are a big problem for the vast majority of riders, so a single chain ring is effectively a "solution looking for a problem."
2. If dropped chains are a serious problem for racers, then I think there likely is a simple solution to prevent it. For instance, it is easy to imagine something (like a clutched rear derailleur) where a small lever could move the front derailleur into a lower position that prevents chain drops. In the other position, you would have a normal double chain ring setup. If you're in a situation where you only need your big ring, just flip the lever.
Here's my thoughts:
1. I don't think single chain rings will replace doubles on road bikes because the step sizes in the gearing are too large with a single chain ring. I also don't think dropped chains are a big problem for the vast majority of riders, so a single chain ring is effectively a "solution looking for a problem."
2. If dropped chains are a serious problem for racers, then I think there likely is a simple solution to prevent it. For instance, it is easy to imagine something (like a clutched rear derailleur) where a small lever could move the front derailleur into a lower position that prevents chain drops. In the other position, you would have a normal double chain ring setup. If you're in a situation where you only need your big ring, just flip the lever.
But I think the chain drop is more of an issue than you think. No-one films the 100th place guy dropping a chain, and it usually does not require a support car. It happens in sprints all the time. The 1X thing is growing and taking market share (as are discs and gravel and wide tires) from the traditional road bike.
Look closely at the picture here: https://www.bikeforums.net/19842605-post65.html. So far you have not commented on it. That is another reason to move to a solid 1X, but that is certainly rare. Much more rare than chain drop.
I think the 2X will remain the preferred road race (like TdF riders ride) setup, but all the other cases from rec to racing I can see a 1X being a valid choice too.
If UCI lowers weights to <6kg/<12lbs region I see discs, wide tires all going away overnight. We may see the 1X show up in the pro peloton.
09-06-17, 04:32 PM
#113
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I can see the possibility of 1x11 and 1x however many gears we can cram on that axle combinations on road bikes.
I'm usually riding in the 4th to 10th gears and there is only one or two tooth difference between each. I can now shift to a higher gear ratio and not kill my cadence trying to accelerate up a hill after having reached my max cadence. Having to shift the front to a lower and the back over several higher just isn't efficient enough to keep from causing some hindrance to your cadence.
09-06-17, 10:05 PM
#114
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Look closely at the picture here: https://www.bikeforums.net/19842605-post65.html. So far you have not commented on it. That is another reason to move to a solid 1X, but that is certainly rare. Much more rare than chain drop.
09-08-17, 07:50 PM
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The "hill bike" is a MASI Evolutionize rebuilt for these hill climbs they have in CO. Start at the bottom, finish at the top, mass start, So not always the lowest times, anyway...
Front is Wolftooth 44, rear is 11speed 11-29(12-29 would have been preferred, I couldn't get in same spec). I have 46 and 48 T options. Junior has crit raced with same setup, although might just go to a single bigger ring for that as the chain angle is a wee better.
Front is Wolftooth 44, rear is 11speed 11-29(12-29 would have been preferred, I couldn't get in same spec). I have 46 and 48 T options. Junior has crit raced with same setup, although might just go to a single bigger ring for that as the chain angle is a wee better.
I'm not a racer, but am blessed enough to be a strong and healthy guy that seriously considers going back to the 12-23 I had (8speed). I'm seriously considering going 11 speed just to add three extra cogs to the rear - a 25,27 and 29. Right now I jump 23 then 26, but a closer shift and the 29 would mean I would almost never have to drop the front down for a climb.
Of course if I keep my double I could also enjoy an 11 speed 12-23
which is nice since I use my steel ride for centurys in the windy midwest.I'm intrigued after reading this thread though, when I get a nice stiff alloy road bike I'll seriously consider 1x
09-08-17, 07:59 PM
#116
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Eventually chains and cogs need to disappear altogether. "Infinite speed" systems have been used for machinery since at least the 60's and probably earlier. It usually consist of a belt or chain riding between two cones. As the cones move apart or closer, the gear ratio changes giving you an infinite choice of settings between the minimum and max range. No more worries about how many teeth you step up from one gear to the next, so no unwelcome hits to your cadence output.
The technology is there but the price of materials strong enough to do the job and light enough for bicycles is probably lacking.
The technology is there but the price of materials strong enough to do the job and light enough for bicycles is probably lacking.
Chains are probably the most efficient way to transfer power. They're light and simple.
How cool would that be though, a cvt? Are CVTs the future of road biking?
09-08-17, 11:08 PM
#117
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09-08-17, 11:18 PM
#118
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I guess you were fooled. That a bike is used "for racing", does not make it a racing discussion. I doubt we can define racing any more than we can define road bike.
I don't see racing in my posts.
But in Road Cycling it is common for someone to try to be faster - or think they are. Just the way it is. Few threads here do not involve going faster (than the next person).
I don't see racing in my posts.
But in Road Cycling it is common for someone to try to be faster - or think they are. Just the way it is. Few threads here do not involve going faster (than the next person).
09-09-17, 05:04 AM
#120
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That would be awesome but I don't know if they would ever overcome some basic principles of belt style transmissions. Mainly it's that you need to maintain enough friction so there's no slippage. All that extra tension means more friction losses on the hubs and beefier bearings.
Chains are probably the most efficient way to transfer power. They're light and simple.
How cool would that be though, a cvt? Are CVTs the future of road biking?
Chains are probably the most efficient way to transfer power. They're light and simple.
How cool would that be though, a cvt? Are CVTs the future of road biking?
However, evidently they are the future of Citibikes. (see also post #70 above)
09-10-17, 11:13 AM
#121
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...Spinning the gears out of the ring.
Attachment 579402
Attachment 579402
09-18-17, 07:00 PM
#122
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"...Neilson Powless (Roseville, Calif./Axeon Hagens Berman), was also on pace to challenge for a podium finish but suffered a crash while trying to fix a mechanical with his chain. Quick work by Team USA’s support vehicle got Powless onto his spare bike and he was able to regroup for a top-10 finish, placing ninth"
McNulty Takes Silver in U23 Time Trial at Worlds - USA Cycling
09-18-17, 07:21 PM
#123
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Except to Powless this AM
"...Neilson Powless (Roseville, Calif./Axeon Hagens Berman), was also on pace to challenge for a podium finish but suffered a crash while trying to fix a mechanical with his chain. Quick work by Team USA’s support vehicle got Powless onto his spare bike and he was able to regroup for a top-10 finish, placing ninth"
McNulty Takes Silver in U23 Time Trial at Worlds - USA Cycling
"...Neilson Powless (Roseville, Calif./Axeon Hagens Berman), was also on pace to challenge for a podium finish but suffered a crash while trying to fix a mechanical with his chain. Quick work by Team USA’s support vehicle got Powless onto his spare bike and he was able to regroup for a top-10 finish, placing ninth"
McNulty Takes Silver in U23 Time Trial at Worlds - USA Cycling
1. He was using a double chainring setup, and he was riding on the small chainring when the chain popped off to the inside.
2. He was using a single chainring setup, and the chain popped off to the inside.
Which was it?
09-18-17, 07:43 PM
#124
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Powless has to be using a double (McNulty certainly was, there's an event photo where he's clearly in the small ring) because his S-Works has got a fancy eTap FD-- and I have no idea why they would leave that on there with a single chainring. Also looks like a typical S-Works Aero chainring (not narrow-wide) so if he was running it 1X on a ramped ring and dropped a chain... yeah, that'll happen.
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09-18-17, 07:56 PM
#125
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His chain dropped off on the inside, between the crank and the frame. There are two possibilities:
1. He was using a double chainring setup, and he was riding on the small chainring when the chain popped off to the inside.
2. He was using a single chainring setup, and the chain popped off to the inside.
Which was it?
1. He was using a double chainring setup, and he was riding on the small chainring when the chain popped off to the inside.
2. He was using a single chainring setup, and the chain popped off to the inside.
Which was it?
On a designed for single / 1X either a narrow-wide or long tooth it is not very likely there would have been drop. But it can still happen, just (as I posted) never seen it.
The other thing is they swapped bikes, so it may have been chain between rings. I've had that happen on the tandem. Once in, it does not want to come out.
Last edited by Doge; 09-18-17 at 08:00 PM.