What happens if I don't change the oil in my IGH?
#1
Full Member
Thread Starter
What happens if I don't change the oil in my IGH?
What happens if I don't change the oil in my Alfine 11 Internal Gear Hub? Do I risk damaging it or will it just not shift gear?
#2
2-Wheeled Fool
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 2,346
Bikes: Surly Ogre, Brompton
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1385 Post(s)
Liked 677 Times
in
457 Posts
I think it will depend on how much you ride it. How much is it being used? If you aren't riding it much, then you can probably get away with extending past the factory-recommended oil change intervals. If you are really putting it through a lot of use, you may need to change the oil sooner rather than later. At any rate, and in any situation, its always better to err on the side of caution and just change the oil. One of our fine fellow forum members here has a great video on changing the oil.
#3
Senior member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Oakville Ontario
Posts: 8,119
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 943 Post(s)
Liked 659 Times
in
372 Posts
I think it will depend on how much you ride it. How much is it being used? If you aren't riding it much, then you can probably get away with extending past the factory-recommended oil change intervals. If you are really putting it through a lot of use, you may need to change the oil sooner rather than later. At any rate, and in any situation, its always better to err on the side of caution and just change the oil. One of our fine fellow forum members here has a great video on changing the oil.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFOMD2q5-o4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFOMD2q5-o4
I made the above video, however many years ago that was, in response to all the discussion happening at the time around Shimano's recommendation to convert the Nexus and Alfine hubs to oil lubrication, using, of course, Shimano's own (high priced) specially formulated oil.
Lots of discussion was happening on alternatives, so being in a position to do so, I decided to run some long term tests.
I did place annotations of the videos that I was not endorsing ATF as an alternative, but unfortunately, those annotations were added after uploading to Youtube rather than during the video editing, and they have since disappeared.
Likes For Dan Burkhart:
#4
Full Member
Thread Starter
I think it will depend on how much you ride it. How much is it being used? If you aren't riding it much, then you can probably get away with extending past the factory-recommended oil change intervals. If you are really putting it through a lot of use, you may need to change the oil sooner rather than later. At any rate, and in any situation, its always better to err on the side of caution and just change the oil. One of our fine fellow forum members here has a great video on changing the oil.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFOMD2q5-o4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFOMD2q5-o4
#5
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Nor-Cal
Posts: 3,767
Bikes: lots
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1958 Post(s)
Liked 2,932 Times
in
1,489 Posts
#6
Full Member
Thread Starter
#7
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Nor-Cal
Posts: 3,767
Bikes: lots
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1958 Post(s)
Liked 2,932 Times
in
1,489 Posts
You have to lube single speed freewheels too. They're not 'internal' like an Internally geared hub though, totally different.
Likes For cxwrench:
#8
Super-duper Genius
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Muskrat Springs, Utah
Posts: 1,713
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 768 Post(s)
Liked 984 Times
in
508 Posts
There is good material, including pictures, from Aaron's Bicycle Repair, a.k.a. Rat City Cycles here. They're located in Seattle and therefore know about rainy environments. Read up on it and click links to some of the other pages at their site. They have a lot of advice and technical info on Shimano Nexus and Alfine hubs.
Apparently, riding your IGH a lot in the rain is what drives a need for frequent service. If you ride in a dry environment, you should be okay going longer intervals without service.
I believe I've also read from Sheldon Brown that bringing an IGH inside from the cold is not such a good practice. When the hub gets cold outside and then comes in and quickly warms up, moisture can condense inside it. If there's a secure, dry place to leave it outside in the cold, that might be better for it in the long term.
Apparently, riding your IGH a lot in the rain is what drives a need for frequent service. If you ride in a dry environment, you should be okay going longer intervals without service.
I believe I've also read from Sheldon Brown that bringing an IGH inside from the cold is not such a good practice. When the hub gets cold outside and then comes in and quickly warms up, moisture can condense inside it. If there's a secure, dry place to leave it outside in the cold, that might be better for it in the long term.
#9
2-Wheeled Fool
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 2,346
Bikes: Surly Ogre, Brompton
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1385 Post(s)
Liked 677 Times
in
457 Posts
Either that, or you'll see wear happen only in that gear position. Dan is the real expert here, so maybe he'll chime in again. Its pretty simple to change the oil. I would not hesitate to use ATF either. I'm a huge fan of ATF for several different bike-related tasks.
#10
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Chicago area
Posts: 2,556
Bikes: Airborne "Carpe Diem", Motobecane "Mirage", Trek 6000, Strida 2, Dahon "Helios XL", Dahon "Mu XL", Tern "Verge S11i"
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 980 Post(s)
Liked 584 Times
in
401 Posts
I have an Alfine 11-speed hub with over 9,000 miles on it. I've changed the oil per factory instructions roughly ever 800-1,000 miles. The whole procedure takes about 30 minutes if you take your time. The wheel doesn't even have to come off the bike.
Every time I change the oil, I remove slightly less oil than I placed at the previous change. This means that the hub loses oil very slowly over time. Over a distance of 1,000 miles the oil loss doesn't amount to much; at most a few milliliters. But eventually, there won't be enough oil to protect the internals from wear. There are *vastly* more moving parts inside a hub like this than there are inside a single-speed hub, or a hub with a cassette. Dan had made a really nice video
EDIT: I've been using Royal Purple MaxGear 75w-140 instead of the "official" Shimano oil because its viscosity and other properties resemble the Shimano oil (except for color: the Shimano oil is green). I'm sure ATF would work well, but it's a lot thinner and I would not be surprised if it leaked out a little more.
Last edited by sweeks; 05-23-21 at 05:17 PM.
#11
2-Wheeled Fool
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 2,346
Bikes: Surly Ogre, Brompton
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1385 Post(s)
Liked 677 Times
in
457 Posts
I believe I've also read from Sheldon Brown that bringing an IGH inside from the cold is not such a good practice. When the hub gets cold outside and then comes in and quickly warms up, moisture can condense inside it. If there's a secure, dry place to leave it outside in the cold, that might be better for it in the long term.
#12
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Chicago area
Posts: 2,556
Bikes: Airborne "Carpe Diem", Motobecane "Mirage", Trek 6000, Strida 2, Dahon "Helios XL", Dahon "Mu XL", Tern "Verge S11i"
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 980 Post(s)
Liked 584 Times
in
401 Posts
If you've ever disassembled any IGH, you'd soon come to realize that there may be less than a couple cubic centimeters-worth of air inside after the oil has been added, and even less than that inside a classic Sturmey-Archer 3-speed hub. Think about it for a second - that air has to be laden with moisture in order for it to make any condensation, and there is so little air, I doubt it would make much difference.
Likes For sweeks:
#13
Full Member
Thread Starter
#14
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,893
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1062 Post(s)
Liked 665 Times
in
421 Posts
Whether single or multi speed, a freewheel contains moving parts, including bearings and the ratchet mechanism which is usually pawls and springs. Any time you have moving metal parts, they need to be lubricated. How often they need to be re-lubricated depends on a lot of things, including how well sealed they are, and sources of contamination ranging from dust to road salt. It's pretty rare to re-lube a freewheel, partly because the moving parts are only moving when you're coasting. And the time honored lubrication technique is to let some light oil drip through the hub from one side to the other. I've done that on an old freewheel on a friend's "campus bike" that she gave to my daughter.
In an IGH, any number of the internal parts, and possibly all of them depending on the design, are in motion all the time. They are usually lubricated by being bathed in light oil that collects in a sump in the hubshell. Some newer hubs have used light grease instead, don't know the pro's and con's. Early hubs like the Sturmey Archers were not sealed, and so a certain amount of oil constantly leaked out past the bearings, which is why those hubs are always coated by a patina of black greasy dust and the chrome underneath pristine. I've found that some of that oil also ends up on my chain. The oil has to be replaced, but also, changing it periodically is a chance to wash away metal particles and other filth that have collected over time.
Whatever oil drips out would certainly "lube" the belt on a belt drive bike, and so hopefully the rubber is compatible with oil. (This is typical for any rubber used for automotive purposes). But it would be worth keeping an eye on, to make sure the belt isn't getting filthy.
In an IGH, any number of the internal parts, and possibly all of them depending on the design, are in motion all the time. They are usually lubricated by being bathed in light oil that collects in a sump in the hubshell. Some newer hubs have used light grease instead, don't know the pro's and con's. Early hubs like the Sturmey Archers were not sealed, and so a certain amount of oil constantly leaked out past the bearings, which is why those hubs are always coated by a patina of black greasy dust and the chrome underneath pristine. I've found that some of that oil also ends up on my chain. The oil has to be replaced, but also, changing it periodically is a chance to wash away metal particles and other filth that have collected over time.
Whatever oil drips out would certainly "lube" the belt on a belt drive bike, and so hopefully the rubber is compatible with oil. (This is typical for any rubber used for automotive purposes). But it would be worth keeping an eye on, to make sure the belt isn't getting filthy.
#15
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,893
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1062 Post(s)
Liked 665 Times
in
421 Posts
An additional note, one of my 3-speed hubs is a Sturmey AW that was formerly on my mom's bike. Its oil cap had fallen off, and the hub had been ridden dry for some unknown time period, probably years. All I had to do was scrub the small amount of powdered rust off the internal parts, re-assemble, and have been riding that hub without issue for several years. Those English engineers knew how to design things that could be made with relatively imprecise tolerances but extreme reliability.
Likes For Gresp15C:
#16
Full Member
Thread Starter
Whether single or multi speed, a freewheel contains moving parts, including bearings and the ratchet mechanism which is usually pawls and springs. Any time you have moving metal parts, they need to be lubricated. How often they need to be re-lubricated depends on a lot of things, including how well sealed they are, and sources of contamination ranging from dust to road salt. It's pretty rare to re-lube a freewheel, partly because the moving parts are only moving when you're coasting. And the time honored lubrication technique is to let some light oil drip through the hub from one side to the other. I've done that on an old freewheel on a friend's "campus bike" that she gave to my daughter.
Whatever oil drips out would certainly "lube" the belt on a belt drive bike, and so hopefully the rubber is compatible with oil. (This is typical for any rubber used for automotive purposes). But it would be worth keeping an eye on, to make sure the belt isn't getting filthy.
#17
Clark W. Griswold
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: ,location, location
Posts: 13,543
Bikes: Foundry Chilkoot Ti W/Ultegra Di2, Salsa Timberjack Ti, Cinelli Mash Work RandoCross Fun Time Machine, 1x9 XT Parts Hybrid, Co-Motion Cascadia, Specialized Langster, Phil Wood Apple VeloXS Frame (w/DA 7400), R+M Supercharger2 Rohloff, Habanero Ti 26
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4361 Post(s)
Liked 4,002 Times
in
2,671 Posts
You would take off the seals and add fresh grease or something like Phil's Tenacious Oil in the bearings of the freewheel. If you are running a belt you don't need to lube it though you can use silicon spray however you would lube a chain. If you are running fixed you would just need hub maintenance or replacement of bearings as needed and same stuff with chain or belt.
Basically anytime you have metal on metal contact you want something keeping it lubricated or protected in some way from rust and corrosion and to keep everything moving properly if needed (as in the case of your hub). It is always better to err on the side of a little extra maintenance then none at all. Alfine hubs are not the most expensive thing in the world but I wouldn't want to have to replace it because I didn't change oil once and while. Just like you need food to survive a thing with moving parts needs lubrication.
Basically anytime you have metal on metal contact you want something keeping it lubricated or protected in some way from rust and corrosion and to keep everything moving properly if needed (as in the case of your hub). It is always better to err on the side of a little extra maintenance then none at all. Alfine hubs are not the most expensive thing in the world but I wouldn't want to have to replace it because I didn't change oil once and while. Just like you need food to survive a thing with moving parts needs lubrication.
#19
Mad bike riding scientist
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 27,369
Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones
Mentioned: 152 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6222 Post(s)
Liked 4,222 Times
in
2,368 Posts
I’m not going to say much about changing oil in an IGH other than to say that lubricants in a bicycle application will probably last until the sun goes cold because the stresses put on them are so small. You need to change oil in internal combustion engines because the lubricant is subjected to extreme conditions. Bicycles don’t experience that.
This, however, chaps my hide. It’s just straight up wrong. If you want to test it, put a cup of hot tea next to a glass of iced tea and see which one causes condensation. You might have some condensation if you are taking a warm bike into the cold but even that is a stretch. Warm air from a heated house doesn’t have much water in it during the winter...cold air can’t carry much water and heating it doesn’t add water to it. Taking a warm bike out into the cold does lower the amount of water that the air can carry but that just brings it back down to the level of the water in the cold air. No condensation should occur.
Even if it could possibly happen, the amount of moisture is tiny and the volume of air it could condense from is also tiny. At 20°C (78°F), fully saturated air has 0.0017g of water in every cubic meter. That almost 2 milligrams of water in a 1 m cube. There are a million mL in a cubic meter. There are about 100 mL in a IGH hub. If the hub shell were completely empty, that a grand total of 2 one millionth of a gram. It’s not even a “drop” of water. It’s barely a “hint” of water.*
To put it another way, to get to a gram of water, you’d have to take the bike in and out of the house 500,000 times.
*I usually give the US equivalents for this kind of discussion but we have no easily used way of measuring that small a volume. A US teaspoon has almost 5 mL in it or 2.5 million times the volume.
I believe I've also read from Sheldon Brown that bringing an IGH inside from the cold is not such a good practice. When the hub gets cold outside and then comes in and quickly warms up, moisture can condense inside it. If there's a secure, dry place to leave it outside in the cold, that might be better for it in the long term.
Even if it could possibly happen, the amount of moisture is tiny and the volume of air it could condense from is also tiny. At 20°C (78°F), fully saturated air has 0.0017g of water in every cubic meter. That almost 2 milligrams of water in a 1 m cube. There are a million mL in a cubic meter. There are about 100 mL in a IGH hub. If the hub shell were completely empty, that a grand total of 2 one millionth of a gram. It’s not even a “drop” of water. It’s barely a “hint” of water.*
To put it another way, to get to a gram of water, you’d have to take the bike in and out of the house 500,000 times.
*I usually give the US equivalents for this kind of discussion but we have no easily used way of measuring that small a volume. A US teaspoon has almost 5 mL in it or 2.5 million times the volume.
__________________
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Last edited by cyccommute; 05-24-21 at 09:59 AM.
Likes For cyccommute:
#20
Full Member
Thread Starter
I’m not going to say much about changing oil in an IGH other than to say that lubricants in a bicycle application will probably last until the sun goes cold because the stresses put on them are so small. You need to change oil in internal combustion engines because the lubricant is subjected to extreme conditions. Bicycles don’t experience that.
#21
Palmer
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 8,627
Bikes: Mike Melton custom, Alex Moulton AM, Dahon Curl
Mentioned: 37 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1671 Post(s)
Liked 1,826 Times
in
1,062 Posts
Hours of reading on the Alfine 11 in actual service:
https://forum.cyclinguk.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=64432
#22
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,893
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1062 Post(s)
Liked 665 Times
in
421 Posts
Oddly enough, if there were metal particles in the oil, it would be black. As for changing the oil, at least on the old SA hubs, it's not so much a matter of changing it, but of replacing what leaks out.
#23
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Nor-Cal
Posts: 3,767
Bikes: lots
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1958 Post(s)
Liked 2,932 Times
in
1,489 Posts
#24
Full Member
Thread Starter
#25
Live not by lies.
Join Date: Nov 2020
Posts: 1,306
Bikes: BigBox bikes.
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 860 Post(s)
Liked 784 Times
in
582 Posts
An oil change on the 11 speed Alfine is a drain and fill procedure. Removal of the internals is not necessary.
I made the above video, however many years ago that was, in response to all the discussion happening at the time around Shimano's recommendation to convert the Nexus and Alfine hubs to oil lubrication, using, of course, Shimano's own (high priced) specially formulated oil.
Lots of discussion was happening on alternatives, so being in a position to do so, I decided to run some long term tests.
I did place annotations of the videos that I was not endorsing ATF as an alternative, but unfortunately, those annotations were added after uploading to Youtube rather than during the video editing, and they have since disappeared.
I made the above video, however many years ago that was, in response to all the discussion happening at the time around Shimano's recommendation to convert the Nexus and Alfine hubs to oil lubrication, using, of course, Shimano's own (high priced) specially formulated oil.
Lots of discussion was happening on alternatives, so being in a position to do so, I decided to run some long term tests.
I did place annotations of the videos that I was not endorsing ATF as an alternative, but unfortunately, those annotations were added after uploading to Youtube rather than during the video editing, and they have since disappeared.
Did you do your penance for stealing the wife’s juice and tea pitcher?