Futago

I have received news from Colnago and the bike shop. Quite disappointing.

Colnago said they've analysed the photos and have determined after communicating with experts that the bike must've been in an high impact accident. Their experts claim that a considerable amount of force was required to do the damage and they tend to see this happen in collision accidents. Colnago further states that they cannot determine that there was an accident, since there's no evidence on the frame that supports that theory. They can only conclude that the frame must've been damaged during shipping. Colnago asked the bike shop if they checked the shipping box for any damages or dents upon receiving it. Colnago believes that if any dents were on the box, it would be evidence for damage inflicted during the shipping process. The bikes shop claims that they never received a damaged box and they aren't to blame for any damages. Furthermore, the shop explained to me that the decision of replacing the frame doesn't lie with them and that it ultimately lies with Colnago.

In my response I added that I have never been involved in an accident. My bike is new and has very low mileage on it. Additionally, if I were to go downhill and the frame broke, it could've been a fatal accident. I feel they sold me a product that placed my life in danger and we can all be lucky it wasn't more serious.

The next reply from the shop was to tell me that they want to communicate as much as they can and assist me. They would however want to ask me three questions. The questions are as follows:

1. Have you ever transported the bicycle by plane?
2. When carrying the bicycle by car or train, is there any tool that was used to protect the frame of the bicycle from which the wheel was removed?
3. Have you taken your eyes off the bicycle with the bicycle in the bike bag?

I thought these are strange questions to ask or dig for reasons to blame me... Anyway, I figured those questions are easy to answer. The bicycle has never been on a plane, I have a fork spacer and a dummy hub for the bike. I just didn't use it when I returned the bike since it was already broken. My bike has only been transported on a train twice. The second time being when I took the bike back to return it.. Lastly, my bike is important to me and will of course always be with me and in near sight. I paid a lot of money for it. Naturally I'll be protective of it.

I further stressed how unhappy I am with them and Colnago. They have disappointed me with their response so far.

There's more details, but this is mostly a summary of the important bits. Will see what happens next.

Stay tuned.


Here are the photos.


There's an alloy frame protector plate on the bottom stay, just behind the chainring. Look at the angle.




I haven't noticed any other cracks on the frame. I was too upset to look at it further. I do believe though, that there were other areas I noticed where paint was chipping off. The shop told me that they took many photos of all the cracked areas.




I noticed the frame broke in the same line as the angle of the bottom plate. The right stays flexed outwards when the incident happened and pulled the wheel out from the left side stays. The chains tensions naturally pulled the wheel inwards.




This area was flexing all the way out.




I think only a few tiny threads on the inside are holding this part together. It basically snapped right through.

CliffordK

OUCH!!!

Thanks for the photos, and sorry that Colnago hasn't been more helpful. Talk to them again.... and again.... The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

You could, of course, contact a company like Ruckus Composites in Portland, or Calfee. They may be able to repair the frame, although I'd probably not do the repair. They may help with diagnosis.

As far as the plane of damage. I think if you cut open the frame at the cracked points, you would find that it is not a true monocoque construction, but rather would see some sort of joint between the front triangle and the rear triangle near the point of the crack. The angled seat tube may mean the joint on the chainstays is also angled.

A heavy impact with the rear wheel off sounds plausible, although one would expect to see a chip or something away from the break. For example, some major chips near the rear derailleur and somewhere else.

The question then is who would be responsible. The impact could have happened during construction, shipping, perhaps the frame takes a couple of stops on the way to the final customer.

It is my belief that the person shipping should take some liability to get an item safely packed for transport. So, even if the bike got damaged in shipping, it may still fall back on Colnago to make sure it was well packed.

Even if you don't get a replacement frame from Colnago, you should have a nearly new groupset that could be transferred to a different frame. Even a used E-Bay frame.

Good Luck

puma1552

TrojanHorse

That chain stay damage is right in the area where you might drop a chain but that wouldn't cause the seat stay issue...

Frankly, if you got hit by something hard enough to snap the rear triangle, I'd expect a lot of damage elsewhere as well and you might choose to point that out to your shop.

Don't give up!

CliffordK

@Futago , can you provide a direct view of the chainrings, bottom bracket, and chainstays from below.

Chain damage would depend a bit on chain clearance at the big ring & chainstay vs small ring & chainstay.

What is that black triangle that I see just behind the chainring on the side view? Some kind of guard? Drop stop protector or chain suck protector?

It almost looks like a focal impact at the tip of that triangle, but other than the potential for chain issues as above, the crankset should give quite a bit of protection to the chainstays.

That triangle likely helped direct where the damage occurred.

Futago

@CliffordK, I didn't take a photo from that angle. The bike is currently at the shop, so I am unable to provide such a photo.

Yes. It a type of alloy guard. Either molded into the frame during manufacture or glued on. I've wondered about it since there seemed to be quite a lot of space between the chainstay and the chainring. I believe it's there to protect the frame if the chain had to drop out. That plate still has that blue kind of wrap that usually comes with new appliances. Not even that has been damaged or removed.

Considering what Colnago mentioned in their email. They believe more extensive damage or some kind of collision damage would've appeared on the frame if I was involved in an accident. There is, however, no evidence supporting that. I am trying to figure out and understand how the frame could've been damaged, but I just can't think of what could cause such a strong impact. Especially since all I've done is ride the bike on well-maintained roads and some pretty steep climbs. All I can think of is that either the bike was damaged during shipping or the bike was somehow damaged at the shop I purchased it from.

This whole thing is keeping me up at night. I'm sure anyone here who has experienced something similar, can relate to it. This new bike became my most treasured possession. Although discussing this on the forum, does help a lot. I do appreciate everyone's insight and opinions regarding this.

TiHabanero

Had a customer come in with a 2012 or so Tarmac with the same breakage as your Colnago. He was racing, got into a crash and another rider landed on the frame. Cracked like a twig just like yours. Certainly can see it from Colango's point of view, something had to impact the frame back there.

CliffordK

@Futago, are you greater than 200 lbs? If so, how much greater?

We have to take the OP at his word that he never crashed the bike. And since it is relatively new, any event would be memorable. And, likely show scarring elsewhere. scuffed up components, chips, scratches, etc.

I think the most likely explanation is that the rear triangle was squished together at some time in the past. Any pet gorillas sitting on the rear dropouts without the wheel installed?

Either that, or the frame was simply poorly built.

The carbon fiber shouldn't be so sensitive that just looking at them funny will cause the frames to crumble. After all, one is expecting to ride on these bikes, which can include potholes, bumps, railroad tracks, etc. And, for some riders, cranking out 2000W of power (briefly).

If the OP didn't damage it, then it would have been damaged by someone before he got it. Colnago Taiwan, Frame construction & defects, US Importer, various shippers, whoever PACKED the bike, whoever built the bike, LBS, etc.

If that is the case, then I think Colnago should ultimately take responsibility for the bike up to the point where it was delivered to the customer. Whether they agree is another story.

puma1552

CliffordK

Many manufacturers have a "Crash Damage" policy in which they will sell you a new frame for say 20% below cost (retail or wholesale?).

I'd try to get Colnago to cover the frame under warranty, but keep the crash damage option in mind.

It would almost make sense for manufacturers to take other manufacturers crash damaged frames and give a discount. NEW HAPPY CUSTOMERS. I don't know if any do that, but you could ask Trek or Specialized.

MikeyMK

Wouldn't there be a support bar fitted to the dropouts during transporr?

CliffordK

There usually is, although we don't know the status of the bike when unpacked by the LBS. There apparently weren't notes of issues, but that could have been ignored if the bike appeared fine.

How are the frames painted? Could there be internal transfers of the frames during construction without full packing?

Obviously, once the rear wheel is installed, it serves the same purpose, unless something odd is done such as using a 126mm or 135mm wheel in a dropout designed for 130mm.

rydabent

Colnago owes you a new frame. When the frame on my Terratrike cracked, I got a new upgraded frame and was riding again in less than a week., all free of course.

trailangel

You mentioned that you did in fact ship the bike on a train. How was this done? Baggage area?

DaveSSS 

A C-RS doesn't have lugs. Any major brand of frame should be totally reliable. I've owned 3 LOOK frames with lugs and they all held up just fine. I still have a 14 year old KG-461. I bought a C-RS a couple of months ago. So far, it's been great. I've also owned two C-40 frames, back when they were current models. No problems with either one.

I'd say that the frame was damaged in transport and didn't just break due to normal use.

The bikes are very well packaged when they come from Colnago. I bought a 2017 model, with 105 parts, still in the box, from Velomine for only $1200, then stripped off all of the parts and sold them on E-bay. I built the bike bike up with Campy Chorus and Zonda wheels, Easton EC-70 bars, FSA carbon post, so it's now a much higher level build.

scott967

I guess as Fabio Aru would say, "Cazzo di bici!"

scott s.
.

cyclintom

I might say something about this. I'm an engineer and it bothers me a lot that there was this sort of failure on my friend's C40. I had one with a Rabobank paint job approximately the same age that I smashed into a mountainside and the only damage was to the fork dropout. The difference was that my friend's bike had a clear finish. I have a strong suspicion that this caused UV degradation of the CF in the lug. The lug broke AWAY from the headtube and beyond the top and down tubes.

One thing we might add is that they use a different type of resin now and it is heat treated so that the characteristics don't change over time as the older style resin did.

While I may be taking a chance on riding CF again, the failures I've incurred with the older carbon fiber forks have in the first two cases been attributable to bad (in one case EXTREMELY bad) workmanship and in the last from striking a solid rock wall at about 25 mph.

From the old days it wasn't unusual to find Reynold's 531 frames failing because they had been overheated in the brazing process. This would cause them to crystalize and break. Since this was normally at a single lug and since steel frames are so overbuilt, it seldom ended up with serious injuries. But it could very easily have considering the way I descend. The Reynolds problem was serious enough that it made Columbus's reputation since they didn't fail in that manner.

At this point in time carbon fiber frames are not being overbuilt and so abnormal forces can cause massive failures. But these sorts of things are difficult to accomplish with a bicycle. How many people are going to balance their $10,000 bike on cinder block under the forks and rear stays and jump up and down on them? Or in the case of he one guy who had a picture of his bike with the down tube broken out of it - when I emailed him about it he responded with "that car barely hit me". Uh, okay. I was hit by a car doing about 10 mph and it broke every part on the bike except (thankfully) the frame and fork and they had to be straightened.

cyclintom

Well the Look frames used aluminum lugs for a long time and you could get electrolysis between the lug and the tube causing failures. But I never had any problems at all with my Look 241. The C40 through C64 Colnagos use carbon fiber lugs to make simple manufacturing since those were all made in Italy. As I said elsewhere I am suspicious about UV degradation of the resin but that is easily cured by total paint covering.

CliffordK

The C40 and I believe C50 used aluminum dropouts. The fork has a unique dropout/lug where the dropout is hollow, with full length carbon fiber, and the aluminum wrap for strength and durability. The steer tube is carbon, but it may have an aluminum crown. The C40 has a 1" steer tube, and the C50 a 1 1/8" steer tube, and various other improvements.

Colnago did have a few other models mixed in the late 90's and early 2000's era including the C35, C45, and the Cristallo, which had a monocoque construction, or feathered smooth edges on joints. And, also a couple of different fork models.

fietsbob

I look around and see the style of carbon lug and tube is not used,
I suppose that is why..
it does not really use the advantages of the material ,
more resembles metal frame traditions,

But even Hydrofoming has let Aluminum get away from round tubing,
to engineer the shapes to meet the stresses it would see.


I think it can be repaired, (but not Cheaply)
there is a carbon fiber bike repair and custom builder
in San Francisco.. maybe create a whole new head tube..
that being Calfee ..






...

DaveSSS 

The C-RS has monocoque construction. Go to the colnago website and read about it. The frame is made in Taiwan. All that means is labor costs are lower. Most of my bikes since the early model C-40 have been carbon. One of my LOOK 585 frames was involved in a car/bike accident that tacoed both wheels and broke the right shifter, but didn't hurt the frame or Easton ec-90 carbon bars a bit. I rebuilt the wheels and bought new shifters, saddle and bar tape and rode it for thousands of miles. This frame was the highest level unidirectional carbon with glossy clear finish.

cyclintom

This is NOT for you to prove to Colnago that you didn't get in a wreck. It is up to Colnago to prove that you did get in one. From the photos it appears to me that there was a failure precisely where there should not have been one - where the crankset would protect the stay from a side blow that could have broken the chain stay. Also they might argue that the chain jumped the ring and cut through the tube but that could not be proven because the type of failure could have pulled the chain off of the ring as the failure was occurring.

I would tell Colnago quite straight out that if they do not wish to replace the frame and pay for the rebuild that you are going to get a lawyer and sue them. I have had about all of Colnago and their propensity of placing the blame elsewhere. These frame are costing them very little to be constructed in Taiwan and if they can't even part with that amount of money they should be forced to in a court of law. And if that's necessary I believe that all of the social media at your disposal should be used to tell everyone what they are doing.

At second look I see some sort of cast hole directly where the failure was.

Futago

The latest news from the bike shop.

They are still discussing the matter with Colnago and have informed me that this matter will probably take a long time to resolve. The shop is trying to negotiate with Colnago to supply me with a temporary smaller framed promotional bike or find a way to rent me a bike. Although I can to some extent appreciate such an effort, I'm not interested in using a smaller framed bike or renting one from the store. Transport and rental fees add up too much and I have no interest in wasting more of my time and money. All I want is my bike.

I have however informed the shop that they or Colnago should supply me with a new frame or bike by next weekend or give me a refund. I am willing to buy a different brand from them, but I'm not willing to wait months for this matter to maybe be resolved. If this matter cannot be resolved soon, I have threatened to seek legal advice. They will leave me with no other option than to take legal action.

At the moment I am very disappointed in Colnago. I never imagined this would happen. It's quite shocking. Hopefully, Colnago will end up doing what is right and I'll be able to share some good news on this thread.

02Giant 

I think it is too bad what you are dealing with. Hopefully it works out in your favor.

veganbikes

This all sucks Hopefully 'Nago does better . Specialized is pretty excellent for their lifetime frame warranty. I cracked my 11 year old Langster at the bottom bracket and they replaced it quite quickly with no fuss.