Rowan

Yep, this is one of the key motivators. It's interesting to see the the numbers on your brevets issued from France. In the hundreds of thousands for the 200s, but then the numbers go down dramatically as you get through 300, 400 and 600, and then dwindle to the low tens-of-thousands for the 1000s and 1200s.

Of course, for some 1200s, there is a need to have under your belt an SR series completed in the same season to qualify, so you have to do a 400 in there somewhere (or substitute a 600).

I forget how many 400s I have done, not that many, but more than enough to forget. Some have been good, some have been slogs, most notably for the latter a 413km fleche that included torrential downpours and tough headwinds throughout during the night. Oddly, it seems the satisfactions -- and memories -- are greater for the tougher events than for the glide-through ones.

And one final viewpoint -- I like the tactical side of things on longer rides, the thinking about strategies to ensure the nutritional and hydration is right, maintaining a good pace to get through the route on time, and planning for weather conditions. Right now, I am finding 200s and 300s to be comparative breezes, but the 400 is proving a little more elusive because I/we haven't got our strategies quite right.

And the 400 is one that you can still complete without having to sleep, whereas the 600 can be problematic if you aren't a rider with fast averages.

To me, the 600 is the big step up, and if you can do that, you can certainly do a 1000 and 1200, if you care to extrapolate the sleep, fuelling and hydration strategies.

Homeyba

I think this shows the individuality of the sport. I've often had more difficult times on 400ks than 600ks. I always thought the 600ks were easier because I've always had time to sleep on the 600ks (unless I purposely rode them straight through). I definitely agree that if you can do a 600k comfortably you can do a 1200k.

Machka 

I've done several 600Ks, and for me, they are the worst of all the distances. I've had 1 or 2 marginally tolerable ones, but most have been a struggle. I did my first with no sleep and bonked badly at dawn. I did my second with 1 hour of sleep (not enough) and bonked really, really badly at dawn. The rest weren't quite as bad, but still not brilliant.

Up till recently, however, the 400K was my favourite distance, and I've done lots of them. But as Rowan says, we're still working on strategy for getting back into the longer randonneuring distances.

I wish we had a 24-hour race in the area ... that might get us over the 400K barrier again.

LWaB

I find 400s and 600s are about the same, both pretty hard work and not too memorable. 1000s, 1200s and longer are much more fun, as are 200s and 300s. That said, long rides aren't for everybody and they might not ever be fun for the OP. In the last words of that great Aussie philosopher, "Such is life."

c0urt

because it's there

clarkgriswold

Thanks for the input.

I did have company on my ride, although it was just one other person, and we finished in 22.5 hours so had plenty of time to spare.

My problem was mostly just boredom. Although physically it was tough for me, It wasn't as epic as some of the other rides I've had in the past.

Mr 53x11

I got interested in doing some brevet's this year, then decided I'd try an SR series. So far I have done a 200, 200, and a 300. All three have been 99% solo and I hated being solo. The 300k was especially difficult, not so much physically, but mentally it was rough because I was by myself so much. And, ALL 3 had bad weather. The first 200 had heavy rain all day, the 2nd 200 was cold and windy (19 degree start with a 27 degree average, with 20mph wind...only two of us didn't DNF) and the 300k this past weekend had rain from the beginning till 50 miles in and then a strong headwind for 100 miles straight (depressing) which slowed me down greatly. The weather had a big part in me being alone since it cut down on attendance greatly.

I now am not so keen on doing the 400k. I think I could deal with more bad weather but being by myself even longer than the 300k makes me weary. I have pretty much decided to not do any more of these types of rides without a friend saying we will stay together on the ride NO MATTER WHAT!

skiffrun

^

Perhaps what you hated was riding solo in the crappy weather, rather than hating riding solo.

My first 300 in 2010 was a solo effort, but the weather was good. I was mentally prepared in advance of the ride to do the whole thing solo if I had to. There was definitely a period of serious doubt and struggle, but as noted above, it was a good experience.

My advice is: pick better weather days.

Suffering in crappy weather, solo, is crappy. Suffering in crappy weather, with others, builds camaraderie and becomes a storied or epic memory that you may share with others in the future. The most fun stories I hear from my RBA when we happen to be doing the same Permanent, perhaps falling off the pack together, are the stories of struggles; the easy successes are boring. The stories of his days as a submariner are also excellent ways to pass long periods during rides.

Richard Cranium

I certainly agree. But for the most part - a long ride is much more interesting in a group. And of course it would help if you aren't looking at miles of scrub.

If "miles over hours" accomplishments provide no intrinsic satisfaction for you - then you are indeed in need of different cycling venues.

thebulls

Are you faster than the other riders or slower? If the former, then you can slow down to have company. If the latter, possibly getting through controls really fast can help you stay with the faster crowd? Or maybe one of the faster riders would slow down to keep a new rider company?

unterhausen

riding with people on brevets is probably a subject that we could talk about for some time. I started out in racing where staying with the group is paramount and dropping someone is an act of aggression to be avoided on friendly rides. I approached randonneuring with this mindset, and found out that it didn't work that way. And in the end, I am not sure I have the energy to stay with people unless I'm a lot faster than them. If someone wants to ride 5-10% faster than me, "see ya." Even with slower riders, people have their own needs and agendas. Over the distances found in brevets, I enjoy riding alone just as much as riding with others.

The Octopus 

Group riding and group riding strategies in randonneuring are their own little universe, for sure.

Over the years, I've come up with an appraoch that can be best described as, "Here's the pace I'm riding. If you want to ride with me at that pace, I'd love to have your company." Sometimes I get a lot of takers. Sometimes I'm on my own. Both have their own merits and joys.

Re: dropping others on brevets.... Weird recent experience on that front.... I got dropped out of the lead group at mile 150 on a recent 400K. I was on fixed and the other folks were geared and I'd just had the wood put to me all day long, especially through some hilly bits, so I said no mas, told everyone to go on without me, and cruised off the back. What was left of the lead group then only put 6 minutes into me over the course of the next 100 miles, while I was time-trialing out there alone. We just couldn't manage a consistent pace -- and especially an effort from stops that wouldn't instantly gap me because I was over-geared. I'm not complaining; this isn't sour grapes. These other riders are my friends and I look forward to riding with them again. But it's just one of those things, in racing especially, where everyone would have figured out a way to make that group work with me in it which would have resulted in a faster finish time for all of us. Randonneurs, for whatever reason, tend to be a lot more Lone Ranger-ish in their riding. Much more so than bicycle racers.

Dudelsack 

Interesting comments above, and helps me understand this past weekend.

On my 100K I was dropped after the first 100 yards, and I was pretty steamed about it. I got separated from the group (just four other cyclists) by a stop light, and didn't see them again until the mid-way control.

They were happy for me to ride back with them, but I honestly could not keep up with them and let it be known I'd be fine on my own.

Still, I thought it was a rude introduction to randonneuring. The folks were nice enough, though, and I did finish the ride within the time limit.

unterhausen

I think one of the things that happens with experienced randonneurs is that they realize that people going different speeds don't get separated by all that much time. I have caught people I figured were an hour ahead of me.

thebulls

At randonneuring distances, I think it becomes essential to ride your own ride (unless you are fast enough that you can deliberately slow down to ride with a slower rider without putting timely completion at risk). When I was a newbie, there were many rides where I spent the first hour or two riding really hard to try to keep up with faster randonneurs. It never worked, and always resulted in two to three hours of suffering afterwards. Eventually I concluded that I actually finished slower by trying to ride faster, because during the two or three hours of suffering I slowed my average speed by more than riding out-of-my-depth increased it. Nowadays, I often will line up at the back and give it a count to thirty while the faster riders all get out on the road. I'll often end up passing the slower riders, but the fast people who I can never keep up with will already be so far down the road that I'm not tempted to try to catch them. This also gives me the chance to say hello to the few riders who are slower than me as I catch up to the other few riders who are about my speed.

Interestingly, training for PBP I ended up riding solo unusually often because I increased my speed enough to consistently drop the riders who were now somewhat slower, but I could not increase my speed enough to bridge the gap to the next faster clump. The distribution of completion times tends to be pretty lumpy!

I think that for someone who really is unhappy riding solo, and who is not fast enough to be able to choose whether to ride with others, randonneuring may not be a great match. Of course, persistence may make a person fast enough to not have to ride solo.

Nick

lhbernhardt

I know that I - and many other randonneurs I know - also do not like riding at night. It's boring. It's like being on a trainer. Time goes by MUCH more slowly, and your speed just naturally drops.

My PBP strategy was to start in the 84-hour group in order to get the 5 am start, then ride to the control just past the 400-km point for that day and sleep, then start again at 5 the next morning. I wasn't out for a fast time, I just needed to finish inside 84 hours, and I wanted TO SEE FRANCE, to see the French countryside, and you can't do that when it's pitch black. But in order to be able to get a decent night's sleep, you need to cover 400 km the first day. This gives you until about 8:30 am the next morning to leave the control. If you only go 300 km, then you've got to leave at 3:30 am or something.

This is why 400 km is a key distance, and why I think you need to be able to comfortably cruise at a 25-30 kmh average. This allows you to finish 400 km comfortably in 16 to 18 hours, so you can get a decent few hours' sleep, and you're not wasting daylight hours sleeping by the side of the road. If you do this properly, you should be able to complete 1200 km in three days of riding, spanning about 65 hours, without feeling too tired.

If you want to ride PBP in a FAST time, you're looking at starting in the 80-hour group (or the 90) in the late afternoon or evening, and planning on riding thru the night (preferably with a group to make it faster and more interesting) while you're fresh, and continuing the next day until it gets dark, so you will have covered maybe 800 km in the first session. Day two is merely a 400 km ride, and you should be able to finish in about 54-56 hours maybe. I find that my hallucination point comes after about 45 hours of continuous riding.

skiffrun

I haven't been doing this rando thing for nearly as long as Nick (he started in 2005 -- I started in 2010), but I absolutely agree that you've got to do your own ride. I include pace and STOPS in that. Taking a long stop when your riding partner needs one, but you feel good, may not help you one bit; you may find that an hour later, it is now YOU that NEEDS an extra stop, and if you don't take it, you may not finish; I learned the hard way on that one.

Also, I think that the definition of "riding with" someone on a rando ride, esp. those longer than 200k, comes with a lot longer bungee cord connecting the front and back of the group. In a normal group or club ride, 200 yards might mean you are no longer "with"; however, on a rando ride, even being a mile or so apart may still be "riding with".

I never attempted to stick to the fast crew at the start of the "Raleigh brevets" (I knew that would be a prescription for disaster). It took me until the fourth or fifth brevet I did in 2010 to figure out how to do those starts. Alan always does the same courses, the 300 builds off the 200, the 400 builds off the 300, and although the 600 is "completely" different from the 2, 3 & 4, the first 12-or-so-miles are the same. Anyway, the first 17-or-so-miles of the 2, 3 & 4 are essentially a shallow downslope to the bottom of a non-trivial climb. After learning who was fast, who was too-fast, who was fast-but-would-start-sensibly, I learned to latch onto the the wheel of one of the sensibly-fast and get a free ride to the bottom of the aforementioned climb. The result -- a free 10 to 15 minutes in the bank. (If you were to read my reports on the start of last year's 2, 3 & 4 (and even the 6), you would know that I don't just strictly "latch onto a wheel" and stay there. I end up behind and alongside various people, chatting with those I seldom get to see while riding. BUT, I always make sure that the pack I am with includes at least one or two or more of the sensibly-fast.)

I think the lesson to be taken from my experience at the Raleigh brevets, compared to Nick's experiences at the DC brevets is: everywhere is a little different; therefore, a conservative approach is wise approach.

Oh, and I completely agree about the "lumpy" results. Although it doesn't appear so from looking at the published results (due mostly to sticking with others suffering bonks, and I desperately needed a 25-minute nap with only 16-miles to go on 400), I was quite a bit faster in 2011 than 2010, but on average, there were fewer people behind me. A result of there being a huge "hole" in front of me with few or no finishers and about half of the mid-to-back-of-the-pack did not show in 2011.