Steel bike failure. Is this manufacturing or something else?
#76
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I find this thread fascinating:
1. I had a low speed MTB incident in the '90s where I kinked the top tube / down tube, but did not crash. It was a light weight Jamis Dakota - no bent fork or wheel problems.
2. I t-boned another racer who was sliding across the ground in front of me during a criterium, sending me knee caps over coffee cups resulting in a kinked top tube and down tube - no bent fork, no wheel problems. An early '90s Japanese built Schwinn Paramount
3. Back in August of this year I crashed in a very poorly marked construction zone, resulting in a cracked aluminum rim, a bent steel fork, and me going tibias over tea kettle, landing on my shoulder & side of my head. My helmet did it's job, but my co-riders were generally freaking out. (what was kinda weird was I bent my NITTO bars and sprained my thumb, but opposite sides... weird...and my tire didn't flat, but the rim cracked - let's hear it for inner tubes! )
- - the GUNNAR CrossHairs frame was (is) fine (brand freaking new! like i'd been riding it a week!!!) . No tube kinks. No cracked paint. No frame mis-alignment (checked out by my local bike shop and me with my engineering degree that I bought 25 years ago....)
- - I talked to the construction company. I am not the litigious sort, so we settled on $500 for me to go away. That covered my bike parts replacement (mostly), but not my e-room visit.
Hopefully someone will stumble upon how the whole thing with the All City was resolved and post it here.
My vote is a manufacturing defect. It sure looks like the welds failed. But do you want to take the opinion of someone who keeps crashing bikes?!
ciao!
1. I had a low speed MTB incident in the '90s where I kinked the top tube / down tube, but did not crash. It was a light weight Jamis Dakota - no bent fork or wheel problems.
2. I t-boned another racer who was sliding across the ground in front of me during a criterium, sending me knee caps over coffee cups resulting in a kinked top tube and down tube - no bent fork, no wheel problems. An early '90s Japanese built Schwinn Paramount
3. Back in August of this year I crashed in a very poorly marked construction zone, resulting in a cracked aluminum rim, a bent steel fork, and me going tibias over tea kettle, landing on my shoulder & side of my head. My helmet did it's job, but my co-riders were generally freaking out. (what was kinda weird was I bent my NITTO bars and sprained my thumb, but opposite sides... weird...and my tire didn't flat, but the rim cracked - let's hear it for inner tubes! )
- - the GUNNAR CrossHairs frame was (is) fine (brand freaking new! like i'd been riding it a week!!!) . No tube kinks. No cracked paint. No frame mis-alignment (checked out by my local bike shop and me with my engineering degree that I bought 25 years ago....)
- - I talked to the construction company. I am not the litigious sort, so we settled on $500 for me to go away. That covered my bike parts replacement (mostly), but not my e-room visit.
Hopefully someone will stumble upon how the whole thing with the All City was resolved and post it here.
My vote is a manufacturing defect. It sure looks like the welds failed. But do you want to take the opinion of someone who keeps crashing bikes?!
ciao!
Cheers
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#77
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The welds actually look really good and it's failed in the heat affected zone just outside them with a very clean brittle fracture exactly the same on both tubes. There is some deformation of the down tube but very little. When I've tried destruction-testing welds on cromoly bike tubes before the whole tube can be completely folded over and flattened before anything fails. My suspicion is that the actual tubes are not cromoly, either the wrong tubes have been supplied or used, or maybe even they're from a batch of cromoly that wasn't made properly.
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#78
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I don't believe the guy, the fork is pushed way back which it means he hit something really hard, head on. The bottom tube has the classic kink when a bike hits something head on. Ask me how I know, I hi t something head on and my bottom tube was badly kinked. If, the frame had "just fallen apart" while he was riding it, the bottom tube would not have been kinked and the forks would not have been pushed back.
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#79
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I don't believe the guy, the fork is pushed way back which it means he hit something really hard, head on. The bottom tube has the classic kink when a bike hits something head on. Ask me how I know, I hi t something head on and my bottom tube was badly kinked. If, the frame had "just fallen apart" while he was riding it, the bottom tube would not have been kinked and the forks would not have been pushed back.
You don't know that. If the top tube weld fails and then he hits the front brake because he doesn't figure out what's going on, all kinds of crazy are going to happen to the fork and the bottom tube.
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#80
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But its not going to bend the front fork back like that. And assuming he lost control because the frame fell apart and then went head on into something, the fork would not bend back like that, there would be nothing to leverage the fork and apply a torque to it to bend it back.
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I don't believe the guy, the fork is pushed way back which it means he hit something really hard, head on. The bottom tube has the classic kink when a bike hits something head on. Ask me how I know, I hi t something head on and my bottom tube was badly kinked. If, the frame had "just fallen apart" while he was riding it, the bottom tube would not have been kinked and the forks would not have been pushed back.
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The video you linked shows why it's not rupture. Steel doesn't fail in rupture like the bike in the op. It's clear that the frame failed in fatigue and then there was rupture at the bottom of the down tube. That's why there was bending there in the tube. The bending would have occurred a little further down the tube had it been in a crash. It might have been very low cycle fatigue from a large defect, there is no way to tell from here. Hitting a frame with a sledge pretty much tells nothing about the welds. It might be more common way to test a weld in thicker cross sections that are in plain strain loading. That is less ductile than a bike tube, even at the weld. I'm sure even some ineptly welded bike frames would pass the sledge test.
#83
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But its not going to bend the front fork back like that. And assuming he lost control because the frame fell apart and then went head on into something, the fork would not bend back like that, there would be nothing to leverage the fork and apply a torque to it to bend it back.
Have you done a lot of crash testing with a brake slam and a detached head tube? I'm not sure what you're looking at to determine the bend in the fork, none of the pictures I've seen make that clear, but even if you are right about the direction of the bend, how would you know where the fork was after the weld failure and what or who would land on it and with what force?
You're making a lot of absolute statements based on intuition about a situation you've never experienced.
#84
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Have you done a lot of crash testing with a brake slam and a detached head tube? I'm not sure what you're looking at to determine the bend in the fork, none of the pictures I've seen make that clear, but even if you are right about the direction of the bend, how would you know where the fork was after the weld failure and what or who would land on it and with what force?
You're making a lot of absolute statements based on intuition about a situation you've never experienced.
You're making a lot of absolute statements based on intuition about a situation you've never experienced.
Look at the big picture, based on basic physics and mechanics FIRST, like torque and ****, before you obsess on metallurgic minutiae.
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Il faut de l'audace, encore de l'audace, toujours de l'audace
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#86
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Point taken, it is angled forward, but how do you explain the kink in the down tube, which is classic evidence of a hard head on hit. This is the mechanics. A hard head on crash will lever the head tube back, it will pull the top tube away from the head tube and compress the down tube, causing a kink in the down tube, which is what we see in this situation.
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Il faut de l'audace, encore de l'audace, toujours de l'audace
1980 3Rensho-- 1975 Raleigh Sprite 3spd
1990s Raleigh M20 MTB--2007 Windsor Hour (track)
1988 Ducati 750 F1
Il faut de l'audace, encore de l'audace, toujours de l'audace
1980 3Rensho-- 1975 Raleigh Sprite 3spd
1990s Raleigh M20 MTB--2007 Windsor Hour (track)
1988 Ducati 750 F1
#87
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So how do you explain the fork being pushed back so far. And by the way, I have experienced this situation, kinking the down tube in a head on collision. What experience do you have with a head on crash, Mr. Know-it-all?
Look at the big picture, based on basic physics and mechanics FIRST, like torque and ****, before you obsess on metallurgic minutiae.
Look at the big picture, based on basic physics and mechanics FIRST, like torque and ****, before you obsess on metallurgic minutiae.
Even if he was right about the fork direction, what the hell does having been through a head on have to do with knowing what would happen in the event of a weld failure? In order to figure out the physics, you'd need to know which way the fork was pointing when it was impacted, and if it's detached from the frame AND we don't know whether he had applied the brake, who the hell knows?
I'm sure there's a fancy Latin name for the "this looks like the damage from a front end collision therefore the cause is a head on collision" fallacy.
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Point taken, it is angled forward, but how do you explain the kink in the down tube, which is classic evidence of a hard head on hit. This is the mechanics. A hard head on crash will lever the head tube back, it will pull the top tube away from the head tube and compress the down tube, causing a kink in the down tube, which is what we see in this situation.
It's pretty hilarious that you've now moved the goalposts. Just admit the photographic evidence doesn't actually prove anything and you'll feel a lot less defensive.
#89
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You do understand that if a top weld goes first, there's going to be possible bending of the down tube as the head tube changes in orientation, right? The fact that it looks like the type of damage you'd see in a front-end doesn't prove anything except a possible coincidence, especially as there's now no other visual evidence of a front end--y'know, bent wheel or fork bent back.
It's pretty hilarious that you've now moved the goalposts. Just admit the photographic evidence doesn't actually prove anything and you'll feel a lot less defensive.
It's pretty hilarious that you've now moved the goalposts. Just admit the photographic evidence doesn't actually prove anything and you'll feel a lot less defensive.
I am man enough to admit I was incorrect, because some people that have posted here are really trying to understand and explain what happened. Part of that is to not be unreasonably stuck on a ridiculous position that you will never waver from, because you don't care about what happened, all you care about is being "right" in your mind. . You thin skin is showing. You are just on a crusade to double down and make any ad hominum, unscientific argument so you dont have to admit you are wrong. Sound like some who is president of the US?
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Il faut de l'audace, encore de l'audace, toujours de l'audace
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Il faut de l'audace, encore de l'audace, toujours de l'audace
1980 3Rensho-- 1975 Raleigh Sprite 3spd
1990s Raleigh M20 MTB--2007 Windsor Hour (track)
1988 Ducati 750 F1
#90
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Assume top tube/head tube joint failed first.
The top tube can no longer go into tension, but it can still be compressed. (For a several hundred year demonstration of asymmetric joints, gothic architecture.) You can still just ride along this way, not advised, but....
Now apply the front brake, moderately, 1/3 g stopping for the convenience of maths. The lever arm from the contact patch to the bottom tube/head tube joint is about 3 feet. Assume rider and bike together weigh 200 pounds.
There is now about a 200 foot-pounds force torque applied to the down tube joint, just over 250 Nm for the SI crowd.
Now normally, this torque causes a tension in the top tube and a compression in the bottom tube. But failed top tube, see above. So all the torque is taken by the joint, which slightly buckles the down tube as the joint fails.
Is that what happened? Possibly. For the impossible crowd like you:
Now, assume the top didn’t fail first. Find me a picture of someone’s bike who crashed it into a barrier, slightly kinked the down tube, and had two complete joint failures, WITHOUT bending the fork. Still waiting and we are getting close to 100 replies....
-mr. bill
The top tube can no longer go into tension, but it can still be compressed. (For a several hundred year demonstration of asymmetric joints, gothic architecture.) You can still just ride along this way, not advised, but....
Now apply the front brake, moderately, 1/3 g stopping for the convenience of maths. The lever arm from the contact patch to the bottom tube/head tube joint is about 3 feet. Assume rider and bike together weigh 200 pounds.
There is now about a 200 foot-pounds force torque applied to the down tube joint, just over 250 Nm for the SI crowd.
Now normally, this torque causes a tension in the top tube and a compression in the bottom tube. But failed top tube, see above. So all the torque is taken by the joint, which slightly buckles the down tube as the joint fails.
Is that what happened? Possibly. For the impossible crowd like you:
Now, assume the top didn’t fail first. Find me a picture of someone’s bike who crashed it into a barrier, slightly kinked the down tube, and had two complete joint failures, WITHOUT bending the fork. Still waiting and we are getting close to 100 replies....
-mr. bill
Last edited by mr_bill; 12-24-19 at 09:51 AM.
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#91
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Again, you dont understand basic physics. If the weld in the top tube fails first, the weight of the rider will pull the down tube OUT of the head tube, so again, no kink in the down tube. Obviously if the weld in the down tube fails again, there will be no kink.
I am man enough to admit I was incorrect, because some people that have posted here are really trying to understand and explain what happened. Part of that is to not be unreasonably stuck on a ridiculous position that you will never waver from, because you don't care about what happened, all you care about is being "right" in your mind. . You thin skin is showing. You are just on a crusade to double down and make any ad hominum, unscientific argument so you dont have to admit you are wrong. Sound like some who is president of the US?
I am man enough to admit I was incorrect, because some people that have posted here are really trying to understand and explain what happened. Part of that is to not be unreasonably stuck on a ridiculous position that you will never waver from, because you don't care about what happened, all you care about is being "right" in your mind. . You thin skin is showing. You are just on a crusade to double down and make any ad hominum, unscientific argument so you dont have to admit you are wrong. Sound like some who is president of the US?
My "crusade" is to say you don't have enough information to rule anything out. I'm being very clear that I don't know what actually happened. You're arguing that there can only be one possible cause for a kink in the down tube, which is clearly silly, and mr_bill has demonstrated that several times in this thread. If anything, I think he may be underestimating the complexity of the physics as we don't know if there were lateral forces occurring from panic swerving or whatever. I have no idea what a bike feels like when a weld snaps and neither do you, so I don't know how a person responds to what is probably some very confusing sensory input. .
Also, you apparently don't know what an ad hominem argument is. You're the one engaging in them.
Last edited by livedarklions; 12-24-19 at 10:20 AM.
#92
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Clearly, a 250 mph gust of wind.
#93
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My "crusade" is to say you don't have enough information to rule anything out. I'm being very clear that I don't know what actually happened. You're arguing that there can only be one possible cause for a kink in the down tube, which is clearly silly, and mr_bill has demonstrated that several times in this thread. If anything, I think he may be underestimating the complexity of the physics as we don't know if there were lateral forces occurring from panic swerving or whatever. I have no idea what a bike feels like when a weld snaps and neither do you, so I don't know how a person responds to what is probably some very confusing sensory input. .
Also, you apparently don't know what an ad hominem argument is. You're the one engaging in them.
Also, you apparently don't know what an ad hominem argument is. You're the one engaging in them.
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Il faut de l'audace, encore de l'audace, toujours de l'audace
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1988 Ducati 750 F1
Il faut de l'audace, encore de l'audace, toujours de l'audace
1980 3Rensho-- 1975 Raleigh Sprite 3spd
1990s Raleigh M20 MTB--2007 Windsor Hour (track)
1988 Ducati 750 F1
Last edited by BillyD; 12-24-19 at 04:42 PM. Reason: Insult
#94
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See, now that's an ad hominem argument! Good for you giving the proper example.
How did Trump get into this?
Last edited by BillyD; 12-24-19 at 04:43 PM. Reason: Cleanup
#95
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Don't worry, you win! You will respond to my post, I will not respond, I'm done trying to reason with small minds. So in your mind you will have the last word and therefore you win, right?
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Il faut de l'audace, encore de l'audace, toujours de l'audace
1980 3Rensho-- 1975 Raleigh Sprite 3spd
1990s Raleigh M20 MTB--2007 Windsor Hour (track)
1988 Ducati 750 F1
Il faut de l'audace, encore de l'audace, toujours de l'audace
1980 3Rensho-- 1975 Raleigh Sprite 3spd
1990s Raleigh M20 MTB--2007 Windsor Hour (track)
1988 Ducati 750 F1
Last edited by BillyD; 12-24-19 at 04:37 PM. Reason: Politics
#96
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. . . . ,Trying to evade the issue, acting like a child in the playground "thats what you are, what am I", Hence you ad hominum comment, accusing me of doing it when I didn't, when you are then one that started made ad hominem arguments against me.
Don't worry, you win! You will respond to my post, I will not respond, I'm done trying to reason with small minds. So in your mind you will have the last word and therefore you win, right?
Don't worry, you win! You will respond to my post, I will not respond, I'm done trying to reason with small minds. So in your mind you will have the last word and therefore you win, right?
In the meantime, you've called me names, told me I was unqualified to have an opinion, and now accused me of having a small mind. All because I pointed out, quite correctly, that your "evidence" didn't prove what you claimed it did. If anyone has been acting Trumpy, it's been you.
I don't claim to have won anything. You've lost to two own goals you scored by claiming things that were provably untrue were facts. The fork isn't bent like you said, and other things besides front end collisions can bend down tubes
And it isn't spelled "ad hominum".
Last edited by BillyD; 12-24-19 at 04:40 PM. Reason: Cleanup
#97
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Uncalled for, mate. You're out of bounds. This is an interesting thread and I wouldn't like to see it shut down because of comments like you just made.
Last edited by BillyD; 12-24-19 at 04:41 PM. Reason: Cleanup
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So I’m guessing you two guys won’t be exchanging Christmas presents tomorrow. Well at least I hope you’ve both fully aired all your grievances and the thread can resume in reasonable fashion.
I’ve removed all the trump remarks, please refrain from such in the future.
Merry Christmas!
I’ve removed all the trump remarks, please refrain from such in the future.
Merry Christmas!
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It is quite likely that the same welder, or process was done on the top tube and downtube. Perhaps even the same batch of metal.
So, I do find it plausible that they would have the same welding defect.
I think there was an example of previous damage showing up as a later lug failure. But, generally a single lug failing, not both.
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I think we can agree that the tubes shouldn't have ruptured like they apparently did in the weld heat affected zone.
But, we still don't have a plausible explanation of the accident.
But, we still don't have a plausible explanation of the accident.
- Frame failed "Just riding along (JRA)", sending the rider to the ground.
- Crack developing before the crash, and cyclist decided he could ignore it.
- Previous Crash damage putting excess stress on the joint.
- Hard crash caused all failures, and the failures are a result of the crash, not a cause of the crash.