Lobbying for Idaho stop law in Ontario
05-27-15, 06:53 AM
#51
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The math works out OK even with the current (unlikely) $100 fine.
Ten 'blown" stop signs per day = 70 per week = 3,500 per year = 35,000 per ten years.
$200 in tickets per ten years means 200/35000 = $0.006 (0.6¢) per failure to completely stop. A tax I'd rather not pay but worth it.
Ten 'blown" stop signs per day = 70 per week = 3,500 per year = 35,000 per ten years.
$200 in tickets per ten years means 200/35000 = $0.006 (0.6¢) per failure to completely stop. A tax I'd rather not pay but worth it.
Last edited by asmac; 05-27-15 at 07:25 AM.
05-27-15, 07:21 AM
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Okay, thanks for the explanation. Seems though that the MV driver is in error in this example though not the cyclist? That said, the wise cyclist in a bike lane when overtaking a MV at a stop with its turn signal on would "wait his or her turn" depending on where in the line-up the right-turning MV was.
In my area most bike lanes I'm familiar with are on busier roads without stop signs and typically have turning lanes with the bike lane splitting the straight-ahead & right-turn lanes.
In my area most bike lanes I'm familiar with are on busier roads without stop signs and typically have turning lanes with the bike lane splitting the straight-ahead & right-turn lanes.
The second issue is getting street engineers to actually put in proper bike lanes as you mentioned... These BL do exist, but only on wide newer roads... so cyclists in my area still have to deal with this conflict on older narrower roads that don't have designated right turn lanes and the associated BL.
** I have a personal vendetta against drivers that fail to signal... this is such a minor thing to do and yet so many times motorists do not extend this simple courtesy to cyclists or other motorists... it is as if they have to twist their arms to some weird awkward position to use the turn signal indicator... it must be painful for some drivers to do this or something. When I am waiting at red light (not in a designated right turn only lane) and someone wants me to move over so they can make a right turn on red... I refuse to move until they actually turn on a turn signal. Yup, I can be a real butthead about this... but gee, that little lever is sooo hard to use, eh?
05-27-15, 08:30 AM
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Quite a few of my friends have gotten tickets for not fully stopping at a Stop sign and I escaped one only because they had pulled over a number of cyclists and ended up forgetting about me while doing the paper work. OTOH, I don't know anyone personally who has won a substantial lottery prize. Locally the Stop sign ticket is $375 so it's a 'prize' I'd rather not get.
05-27-15, 09:11 AM
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r
p.s. found this: "In 1983, the year after the law was adopted, bicycle injury rates declined by 14.5 percent and there was no change in the number of bicycle fatalities." From Bike Law Univerity.
Last edited by raymond1354; 05-27-15 at 09:18 AM. Reason: added p.s.
05-27-15, 02:54 PM
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Admittedly I've only known two lottery millionaires. But I've only even heard of the police stopping ONE cyclist. Seems he was missing the required front and rear reflectors for which the police actually chased him down. His resistance lead to a search that found dugs in amounts that resulted in charges of intended distribution. Somehow.... I suspect the "reflectors" were only an excuse get their hands on the cyclists backpack.
HOWEVER... I stand corrected! In every English speaking city (0ther than in the Bay Area)..... the police have more pressing business than ticketing people on bicycles.
05-27-15, 03:43 PM
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Wow! Impressive! Who on Earth tolerates a $375 stop-sign ticket? Never mind.... the Bay area... I understand.
Admittedly I've only known two lottery millionaires. But I've only even heard of the police stopping ONE cyclist. Seems he was missing the required front and rear reflectors for which the police actually chased him down. His resistance lead to a search that found dugs in amounts that resulted in charges of intended distribution. Somehow.... I suspect the "reflectors" were only an excuse get their hands on the cyclists backpack.
HOWEVER... I stand corrected! In every English speaking city (0ther than in the Bay Area)..... the police have more pressing business than ticketing people on bicycles.
Admittedly I've only known two lottery millionaires. But I've only even heard of the police stopping ONE cyclist. Seems he was missing the required front and rear reflectors for which the police actually chased him down. His resistance lead to a search that found dugs in amounts that resulted in charges of intended distribution. Somehow.... I suspect the "reflectors" were only an excuse get their hands on the cyclists backpack.
HOWEVER... I stand corrected! In every English speaking city (0ther than in the Bay Area)..... the police have more pressing business than ticketing people on bicycles.
BTW this was early morning in the beach area... nobody stirring, but me and a cop.
05-27-15, 07:15 PM
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This conversation occurs frequently, the "same rules for all" crowd and the "sensible rules based on the nature of the vehicle" counterpoint.
It generally goes like this:
To which the response is some sort of:
And that is greeted by the reply of:
And it goes on and on. . .
So, to ask, when driving an auto do you come to a full stop and open your doors before crossing railroad tracks?
Oh, you don't drive an auto. . . well, this still works. When you come to a set of railroad tracks do you move to the rightmost lane (or haz-mat turnout), come to a complete stop, look both ways and then proceed, being sure to not shift gears while your vehicle is on the tracks & track region?
It generally goes like this:
I often wonder how many of the "same rules for everyone" advocates stop before crossing rail-road tracks and open their doors. It makes sense right, after all, school busses are vehicles; thus, using the "same rules for everyone" logic, the rule exists for vehicles and should be the same for all vehicles.
While I have often felt that the operators of commercial vehicles (and vehicles that DOT recognises as trucks) should all have to meet the medical and hours of service requirements of operators of commercial vehicles, they don't. I worked at a place where the riders of bicycles were required to dismount and push their bicycles through the gate but people in autos didn't have to get out of the auto and push it through the gate. I can go on; however, while all are vehicles, different classes of vehicles often have different rules applied to them.
While I have often felt that the operators of commercial vehicles (and vehicles that DOT recognises as trucks) should all have to meet the medical and hours of service requirements of operators of commercial vehicles, they don't. I worked at a place where the riders of bicycles were required to dismount and push their bicycles through the gate but people in autos didn't have to get out of the auto and push it through the gate. I can go on; however, while all are vehicles, different classes of vehicles often have different rules applied to them.
This is a silly comparison. We are not driving commercially with passengers so of course the rules for school buses are not the same for us.
But if you want to be equal on the road and have the same rights then you must also accept the same rules. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. :^)
But if you want to be equal on the road and have the same rights then you must also accept the same rules. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. :^)
But why not?
Are you saying that a school bus isn't a vehicle or are you saying that rules that make sense for some vehicles, due to their nature, don't make sense for others. As such, even though both must obey "the law" that the laws they must obey should be different based on the nature of the vehicle?
(oh, and the commercial vehicles comment is aimed at SUVs'. As you may be aware, the reason they do not have to meet the safety standards of automobiles is because they are intended for commercial use and are likely to be driven by more professional drivers. Which is utter nonsense. . . but they really do not have to met the safety standards of passenger cars. . . you know, different vehicles, different rules, that stuff. . . )
Are you saying that a school bus isn't a vehicle or are you saying that rules that make sense for some vehicles, due to their nature, don't make sense for others. As such, even though both must obey "the law" that the laws they must obey should be different based on the nature of the vehicle?
(oh, and the commercial vehicles comment is aimed at SUVs'. As you may be aware, the reason they do not have to meet the safety standards of automobiles is because they are intended for commercial use and are likely to be driven by more professional drivers. Which is utter nonsense. . . but they really do not have to met the safety standards of passenger cars. . . you know, different vehicles, different rules, that stuff. . . )
So, to ask, when driving an auto do you come to a full stop and open your doors before crossing railroad tracks?
Oh, you don't drive an auto. . . well, this still works. When you come to a set of railroad tracks do you move to the rightmost lane (or haz-mat turnout), come to a complete stop, look both ways and then proceed, being sure to not shift gears while your vehicle is on the tracks & track region?
Last edited by Robert C; 05-27-15 at 07:41 PM.
05-27-15, 11:35 PM
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Past the point of the first post link, the subject has been fussed over several times. I don't see a single deviation from the viewpoints presented previously. Please try to find some those posts for context.
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05-28-15, 02:11 AM
#63
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05-28-15, 03:09 AM
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This depends greatly on where you live. In this area stop signs are not used that way so much. There are a lot of them, but they're actually there to control traffic at intersections. And the vast majority of drivers I see do come to a complete stop. Cyclists, on the other hand, almost never do.
05-28-15, 05:43 AM
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This depends greatly on where you live. In this area stop signs are not used that way so much. There are a lot of them, but they're actually there to control traffic at intersections. And the vast majority of drivers I see do come to a complete stop. Cyclists, on the other hand, almost never do.
05-28-15, 07:06 AM
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05-28-15, 07:10 AM
#67
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This conversation occurs frequently, the "same rules for all" crowd and the "sensible rules based on the nature of the vehicle" counterpoint.
It generally goes like this:
To which the response is some sort of:
And that is greeted by the reply of:
And it goes on and on. . .
So, to ask, when driving an auto do you come to a full stop and open your doors before crossing railroad tracks?
Oh, you don't drive an auto. . . well, this still works. When you come to a set of railroad tracks do you move to the rightmost lane (or haz-mat turnout), come to a complete stop, look both ways and then proceed, being sure to not shift gears while your vehicle is on the tracks & track region?
It generally goes like this:
To which the response is some sort of:
And that is greeted by the reply of:
And it goes on and on. . .
So, to ask, when driving an auto do you come to a full stop and open your doors before crossing railroad tracks?
Oh, you don't drive an auto. . . well, this still works. When you come to a set of railroad tracks do you move to the rightmost lane (or haz-mat turnout), come to a complete stop, look both ways and then proceed, being sure to not shift gears while your vehicle is on the tracks & track region?
05-28-15, 07:36 AM
#68
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They don't work for that which is why I support having them them removed as a priority instead of focusing on allowing some drivers to have different rules. They are unwarranted for all drivers.
https://ma-northampton.civicplus.com/...nter/View/1060
https://ma-northampton.civicplus.com/...nter/View/1060
05-28-15, 07:48 AM
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I like to go to the extreme and point out that low polluting vehicles often get special rules that allow them to use special routes and even bypass on-ramp signals. Since we already have special dispensation for low polluting vehicles, why not go the extra step and offer non polluting bicycles an even better rule... the Idaho stop rule.
Well, *this* road user has even stronger argument about momentum and saving energy and special rules for rolling a stop sign. Plus, this operator is a *professional*, and we all know for sure that the operator knew that there was nobody in the crosswalk after the turn. (But I for one am glad that band practice is over for the semester, since the student who often is crossing the street wasn't there today.)
-mr. bill
05-28-15, 09:20 AM
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Well, *this* road user has even stronger argument about momentum and saving energy and special rules for rolling a stop sign. Plus, this operator is a *professional*, and we all know for sure that the operator knew that there was nobody in the crosswalk after the turn. (But I for one am glad that band practice is over for the semester, since the student who often is crossing the street wasn't there today.)
-mr. bill
-mr. bill
05-28-15, 10:40 AM
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Which is why some "cyclist" advocate groups advocate for some rollers.
But "cyclist and pedestrian" advocate groups are unlikely to take any position - there is a deadlock between the rollers who want to roll and the rollees who don't want to be rolled.
And "pedestrian" advocate groups are pretty much universal - they are against these proposals.
Pretty much anywhere there are more pedestrians than cyclists the fate of these proposals is known.
-mr. bill
Last edited by mr_bill; 05-28-15 at 10:44 AM.
05-28-15, 12:34 PM
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Well guys today I tested my no stop/no tickets [for bicycles] theory. I just returned from a normal 25 mile ride, 16 of those miles are city/residential/urban that I ride through... to get to the MUPs.
I wish I could post that I was so confident that I wouldn't be ticketed..... that my stop sign infraction was deliberately executed in front of the police... but it wasn't.
I just plain did not see the police car behind the car approaching the stop sign from the other direction. The lead car didn't signal any turn and the driver didn't appear to be looking to speed through the intersection. There was no traffic from ether left or right, so I made no effort to slow my forward momentum.
About half-way through the intersection I noticed the 2nd car.... the police car (SUV)... I saw the male officer inside... I saw him see me. Nether of us reacted, we both just continued on our way.
Last edited by Dave Cutter; 05-28-15 at 12:40 PM.
05-28-15, 01:08 PM
#73
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Actually, lobbying for *NONE* to roll through stop signs tends to be *BEST* for *ALL* rollees.
Which is why some "cyclist" advocate groups advocate for some rollers.
But "cyclist and pedestrian" advocate groups are unlikely to take any position - there is a deadlock between the rollers who want to roll and the rollees who don't want to be rolled.
And "pedestrian" advocate groups are pretty much universal - they are against these proposals.
Pretty much anywhere there are more pedestrians than cyclists the fate of these proposals is known.
-mr. bill
Which is why some "cyclist" advocate groups advocate for some rollers.
But "cyclist and pedestrian" advocate groups are unlikely to take any position - there is a deadlock between the rollers who want to roll and the rollees who don't want to be rolled.
And "pedestrian" advocate groups are pretty much universal - they are against these proposals.
Pretty much anywhere there are more pedestrians than cyclists the fate of these proposals is known.
-mr. bill
05-28-15, 01:27 PM
#74
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Pointee - that which is pointed to.
Roller - that which rolls.
Rollee - that which is rolled over.
-mr. bill
05-28-15, 02:30 PM
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Those cyclists that don't care to ROLL stop signs do not have to do so.
Those cyclists that wish to ROLL stop signs, which they probably do now, may do so without the threat of a ticket... if Idaho-like stop laws were enacted.
The bottom line is that this doesn't force anyone to do anything.
The Idaho stop laws just remove the penalty for those that ROLL though stops now... something cyclists do at their own risk, whether there is an Idaho stop law or not.