Mr IGH

There's a reason why the v-brake bike is cheap...I'd go for the Disc Trucker, once you go with thick tubes it's all about the geometry and the DT is a stable design.

Squeezebox

There's no reason for thick frame tubes unless the builder does not know what they are doing. I find little difference between disc & V brakes personally. The tubing & components, and particularly the workmanship, on the Co-motion are far superior to the LHT. It is a no brainer, unless something is bent. Do get it checked out for bent.

elcruxio

That's not based on anything now is it?
The Disc Trucker with 26in wheels is essentially equivalent with the Pangea. Minor differences in geometry and the pangea has a heat treated tubeset which may mean marginally more durability or marginally lighter frame weight. It's not like it's Reynolds 853 or something like that.
If you want to make silly comparisons you may want to rather compare a Range Rover (overpriced and not really all that funtional) to a Toyota Hilux (one of the best service cars on the market with an amazing track record and with reasonable price).
Because there is not a single thing the DT cannot do. Actually because of the disc brakes the DT is really superior as an adventure bike.

Again you know nothing about frame building or mechanics involved. It's funny how you believe the nationality of the builder somehow gives magic properties to a frame. It's not beyond reason to think that the Taiwanese welders actually have more skill, craftmanship and experience than the guys at CoMotion. Or vice versa. Really depends on the person making the frames, but the thing is, You Don't Know.
The neat thing with CoMotion is that you'll have a chance to get a custom geometry which of course costs a lot of money to make but CoMotion socializes that expense equally to all their customers so all of their bikes have needlessly high cost instead of their base models being cheaper and customs being massively more expensive they are now.

A custom steel frame for 2k is still in the realm of reasonable (although I can actually get a custom frameset with better tubing and similiar craftmanship for cheaper in the EU) if you get something really nice in the tubeset, not chromo. For a generic geometry frame 2k is daylight robbery and you'll be much better off with a generic titanium for example.

kingston 

OK @elcruxio, I am insulted by your post so here you go. You asked for it by claiming that I made a post that was not based on anything. Even if your post had any merit, which it doesn't, that was a rude way to start. It's OK to have differences of opinion without being rude. Consider this the tiny retribution hammer. I have a big one in the shed.

The LHT is a mass market bike with basic yet functional parts that a gazillion people ride and it suits their needs perfectly well(Honda Minivan)
The Pangea is an expensive custom frame with top of the line parts that that very few people ride because of the very high cost for small marginal improvements(Range Rover)
You can drop your kids off at soccer practice equally well with either. Now do you get it? (you may have to google soccer practice)

Although it works perfectly well, you will never look cool driving a minivan because it's practical and common, just like the LHT. Get it now?


That would be a terrible comparison, since nobody in America knows what a Toyota Hilux is.


So you're saying that a Surly Disk Trucker is a superior adventure bike to a Co-Motion Pangea? Read that over a few times and let it sink in. Seriously? You have just demonstrated that you have no idea what you're talking about.


Aside from being insulting to @Squeezebox, this is flat-out un-American and a total credibility destroyer when you're talking to a bunch of Americans. We believe that things made in the USA are inherently better, and someone from some outpost in Finland who has already demonstrated that they have no idea what they are talking about will never convince us that's not true.


We call that Marketing. It's pretty common in America.


We know. Americans can buy frames from all over the world.


Another demonstration that you have no idea what you're talking about.

elcruxio

I'll look forward to seeing the big one as this one really wasn't that impressive.

You may have wanted to open your definition a bit earlier. It made little sense to me then and the situation has not drastically improved. I've always thought comparing cars and bikes is silly, but this one just doesn't work for me at all. I just don't see it. If I had to see it I'd consider the Honda to be bakfiets which is a family bike in the way a Honda minivan is a family car. But we're not discussing family bikes or cars, we're discussing touring bikes and it'd be much clearer if you compared touring bikes and touring cars and all that. But like I said, comparing cars and bikes is silly.

So it's about the cool points is it? Ah dang I guess I need to go update my toolset for something cooler so I can look cool when using my tools.
What I meant to say is, no I don't get it. A bike is a tool for riding. I don't care about how cool it is, I care about how well it works.

That is strange. It's one of the best cars ever made. Check out the top gear episodes where they feature it.

I don't see why not? With a Pinion gearbox or Rohloff sure, but those are then in a whole different realm of price and not really relevant to this discussion.
With 3x10 gearing the bikes are quite similiar. The CoMo has more bling but that's not really relevant for touring where it's usually a good idea to get stuff for maximum reliability and easy repair/replaceability. And now that I check out the specs the stuff on it is not stuff that's fit for a 4k bike. It has pretty mundane parts for that price. The LHT is not a cheap bike but the CoMo seems to be even more overpriced in relation.

I'm not an American so I fail to see why I should think in an American manner...
Anyways it's cute you believe US made stuff is better quality but usually it's just more expensive than the same quality item made elsewhere. If you need to pay more for the same work, the end result is going to be more expensive. Bike frames are relatively easy to build and it does not require extensive craftmanship to make a functional product. Welding isn't that hard.
What matters however is desing, which is normally done in the countries of higher education levels (US, EU-countries etc). Surly frames are designed in the US but made in Taiwan. Same thing with every major US bike manufacturer. CoMotion designs and makes the bikes in the US so they cost more as labor costs are massive when compared to cheaper countries.
Anyways if you could just point out exactly what it is that makes the difference between a weld made by an experienced American welder and a weld made by an experienced Taiwanese welder. Also what is the difference?

Honestly, I'm a bit worried about the answer.

kingston 

Wow. Perhaps it's a cultural thing, but your level of "just not getting it" is truly astounding.

Squeezebox

The LHT IS a cheap bicycle with of much lower quality than the Co-motion. Thinner gague and heat treating make for a better frame. Then let's talk about quality control. No comparison between co-motion welds and Surly.
I can see why someone who has an ego problem, and wants to think their mediocre bicycle is as good as something obviously much better. But reality is it just is not.
Get a good frame and components to begin with and repair is a non-issue.

elcruxio

Coming off a bit racist there aren't you buddy?

Then again throwing around vague comments about someone 'not getting it' while giving no effort whatsoever to defining what is actually to be gotten and then resorting to hostile behaviour and petty insults after the brow beating is not successful, is at least to me not the ideal form of rational discourse.

For what purpose though? Racing? Heavy touring? It's a bit more complex than that. But yes heat treatment does give slightly better strength to chromo, about 20-30% more tensile strenght in the middle of the tube where the heat treatment is still present after the welding process.

Don't know about the quality though. The welds in my LHT are as good as the pictures shown at CoMotion website. But maybe I just got really lucky.

You say this with the kind of certainty that says you have some numbers or other definite proof. Let's see it.

Well to be honest just repeating the words that a certain frame is better than the other doesn't yet mean it in fact is. Where would science be if the best results came from the loudest yellers?

Well we can at least agree on that. The LHT is a good frame and it's usually best to choose components yourself so you get exactly what you want.

Dream Cyclery

I think this thread should end there. There is no point of listening to someone that can't have objective view about this thread.

1Mule

Nothing wrong with v-brakes.

saddlesores

either bike would be great for the transam. frame won't make a bit of difference for this ride.
which one fits you better and has the particular component set you want? both are nekkid bikes,
and need to outfit with racks and bags. wheelsets are equivalent.

[No racks included, priced at $1800, new SDT is about $1300 ]

current base price for frame/fork: co-motion ~ $2000 vs. lht ~ $500. just how old is the co-motion, that
the dealer would tell you it's not worth the asking price? and how much wear and tear on the components.
about 100 miles on a new chain....is that the second or third or fourth...?

if co-motion, you're buying used, as-is. what do you need to replace?
you happy with 170mm cranks? any changes will be retail cost.

new lht will get you warranty/service, and can swap out parts at the dealer as needed.
....and it comes with disc brakes, which seems to be one of your preferences.

plus the difference in cost will pay for a snazzy set of racks and bags.

there's your no-brainer right there.

Doug64

What do you base your opinion on? Have you ever had any experience with either bike?

I believe the Co- Motion frame is a better than the LHT's frame, but it is certainly not to the degree you try to portray. In my opinion and experience the LHT and the Co-Motion are both good frames, and do the job they were designed to do.


This is an old post I made on another thread, but it applies here.

Inpd

Yeah, nothing against the LHT, I'll seriously consider buying the frameset if I can work out that front wobble thing.

However, your comparing a $1950 frameset with a $500 frameset. Sometimes that price difference is purely hype but in this case there are big differences such as with respect to weld quality and tubing (4130 vs Reynolds 725).

Now maybe those things don't matter to you, but there is a difference there.

kingston 

Look, @elcruxio, you’re the one who said you didn’t get it. I was just repeating you. And mocking someone because they come from some backwater town in Finland that I’ve never heard of is not racist. Unless Finnish is some race that I’m not aware of. I think America is by far the best country in the world, and every other country is inferior. Most Americans feel the same way. Sorry. That’s just the way we are.

Since there is no wisdom in your posts, only arrogance and anger, I’m going to assume that you are a young person trying to convince yourself that you made the right decision buying an LHT. Let me help you by saying that you absolutely made the right decision. It’s a great bike. But it’s not cool. I’m sorry. I don’t decide what’s cool and what’s not. I just observe it. A frame from a custom low-volume frame-builder in Oregon is cool. A QBP frame cranked out by the thousands in Taiwan is not. That’s just the way it is. Again. I’m sorry you don’t have a cool bike. It’s still very practical, capable, and great value. It’s just not cool. Perhaps someday you will understand.

elcruxio

You live you learn. We're pretty much our own people not really related to anyone else.
You're allowed to believe what you believe and that's ok. Though almost every indicative measurement possible is arguing against the US being the best country in the world but hey, whatever makes you feel better. Rest of this stuff can continue in the P&R forum as this isn't the place for it.

I already knew it's about the bling factor for you. Hard to argue if someone likes to bike to look cool. I don't, for me it's a mode of transport. Though I do find it a bit peculiar that someone would put such emphasis on the bike being cool.

But dude, seriously tone down the hostility. You're just making yourself look silly. Grown man...

steve-in-kville 

My first *real* bike was a Jamis hybrid. Then I upgraded to my Windsor Tourist. Spent the bucks for a BOB trailer. For me, in my situation, these worked... I was happy and satisfied. Now I am ready to upgrade again. I am not independently wealthy, so the above quoted statement will ring true in whatever I buy.

Its like the whole minivan/Range Rover comparison... practical & capable. To me, the LHT would be cool. To others, not so much. Buy wh

GamblerGORD53

A CoMotion bike without a Rohloff is like an ice cream cone without ice cream. LOL

BigAura

The LHT is as good as the Pangea in it's function --> which is loaded touring. Assuming equal components and maintenance either bike fully capable of multi-year round-the-world touring. Although mass-produced the LHT is overbuilt, that's what makes it functionally equivalent. I'll grant you that a Co-Motion does have good steel, beautiful welds, and a stunning paint job. BUT, we are talking about touring not a beauty pageant nor a science-fair project, as far as touring ability they are functionally the same.

kingston 

That’s what I love about you @steve-in-kville. You rock some of the most humble bikes on the planet and make them cool with your attitude.

Philly Tandem

The Pangea for sale the OP is asking about is my (wife's) bike, so I'll (mostly) keep out of this, except to add some pertinent data points. First, this is an S&S-coupled Pangea, not a standard Pangea, so there's that. A bare Pangea frame with S&S travel couplers currently retails for $2665 on Co-Motion's website, or almost $800 more than this fully built bike. Comparing full builds, the used Pangea is almost $3000 cheaper than a $4800 new one (granted, some different parts, etc., but pretty close in build).

#1 issue, as many have mentioned, is fit. Although I'm eager to sell the bike, I'll actively discourage the sale if it's obvious that the frame is not a good fit for someone.

The OP might want to check out this other current thread on BF about 26" wheels, where several posters (not me!) mention this bike for sale specifically and opine that it's an excellent value (I think it's fairly priced, but hey, I'm biased :-) https://www.bikeforums.net/touring/10...26-wheels.html

Here's an interesting review of the Pangea that's worth a read: Co-Motion Pangea Touring Bicycle Review - Photos & Video

Now let's not start an angry thread war about whether S&S is needed or not. I think most will agree is a nice option to have that provides a lot of flexibility, with initial cost being the main trade off. If you can basically get it at almost no incremental cost on a used bike, to me that's a no-brainer to future-proof the bike. As far as brakes go, personally I prefer V-brakes for touring because of ease of repair, universal parts availability (walk into any Walmart and you can get replacement pads in a pinch), but for sure discs are great, too. There are arguments to be made on both sides. We run Avid V-brakes on our Santana Triplet (three seater) bike, and they stop us fine even with 450+ pounds of rolling weight.

BTW, here's the link to the ad: https://www.bikeforums.net/touring-bi...illy-area.html

kingston 

That's @steve-in-kville 's size.

DropBarFan

Aside from discs stopping quicker & easier in the wet? BB7's on DT also work nicer in the dry vs cantis on prev Randonée.

niknak

Oh no! V-brakes are dangerous, LHTs are poorly made. What's next? Should we talk about the merits of helmets or whether it's a good idea to ride with a handgun?

OutSpokyn1

Hi Brain, hope you aren't offended I came here for some feedback on your bike. Co-Motion bikes are awesome bikes and I had read Darren's review. He love's this bike, as he owns one and his experience speaks volumes as this bike being his bike of choice. On the other hand, another cycle touring pro, Alee Denham from Cycling About, doesn't think it's a good value, even though he rides the tandem version. (BTW, his bike buying guide is awesome and very technical, I recommend to everyone).

I am not interested in the "cool" factor or prestige or any of that, I am just looking for a quality bike that most importantly fits, because for me it's just a means to an end. It is all about the the tour, which for me is more of a "journey" and has great significance in my life. I am a 2 time cancer survivor who has had lot's of residual health issues, that have only improved enough this year for me to resume biking. I am also facing some other life challenges and have decided to do this tour because it may be the only time I get to do so and because it gives me something positive to focus on and look forward to. Due to my health issues, the tour will be extra challenging for me, but I think with good planning and a good attitude, it can be done.

I know a big tour can be accomplished on many different bikes, but I am trying to find a bike that puts the odds in my favor and that makes it enjoyable, which is the point of it all!

I am just happy that Brian reached out to let me know the bike was available, as it is rare. See you this afternoon!

Philly Tandem

Not at all offended! There are a lot of options out there, and pros and cons for all of them. Bottom line is you have to get what works best for you. I've been involved with bikes and bike touring for a long time, and I'm more interested in finding a good match for the bike than selling it immediately.

What's hard to discern just by "Internet shopping" is the intangible "essence" of how a frame rides, which is often more than the obvious sum of its parts. Is it lively or staid? Does it ride as good unloaded as it does loaded? Forumites (myself included) love to debate components, specifications, and all that. I'd say 90% of the time (maybe more) the discussions are academic rather than real world. How many of the commenters here have ridden both a Pangea and a LHT (I have, and they both are very good, but definitely ride differently)? For that matter, how many have even ridden (or even seen in person) a Pangea or other Co-Motion bike?